I love 4e with a passion that my geek-fueled prose has expressed numerous times on various platforms.
However, after having played for more than one year, I must say that I really dislike the treasure attribution mechanics and the economics underlying them. Spending time choosing magic items for my players and placing huge amounts of cash is the lowest point of my adventure prep sessions and I always do it last.
Now that the class powers do all the heavy lifting in 4e, magic items are about as exciting as untangling yarn after your cat goes berserk in you knitting bag. I pour over the list every two weeks, trying to find cool stuff and I want to poke my eyes out before they explode of sheer boredom.
Yes, I could use the wish list approach, and I have, but my players don’t really take the time to update it. I’m therefore stuck doing it by default (since maintaining balance is important to me). However, I hate when I accidentally reward the same players more often than others or when the items I took a long time to choose end up being sold at 20% of it’s value. That’s just wasting time.
I know I could have a spreadsheet opened with all that info and insist that my players contribute to the wish list, but tell me… If I can prep all other aspects of D&D 4e easily and without annoyance, why do I have to be annoyed with treasure attribution?
So here’s what my friend Yan and I have been cogitating for the last few weeks…
Level up your items!
Instead of distributing magic loot in treasure, why not allow players to gain new items whenever they level up?
- Have lvl 1 PCs start the game with a level 2 item of his/her choice.
- Every time they level up, give them (for free)
- one new magic item of their choice at level +2 or
- 2 items of their level -1… for free (see below for money).
- allow players to chose whatever items they want.
- all items replaced by the upgrade ceases to exist (to break any inter-PC abuse)
Ex: At level 2, the PC gains a level 4 sword or both a level 1 Amulet and a level 1 pair of magic boots.
Work with the player to explain how they get (and lose) items , maybe they found it off camera during the last adventure, maybe they get it from the local lord for services rendered, whatever… chances are it will make as much sense (if not more) than the default system.
I’m pretty sure this won’t break anything in the game. While some calculations might be be needed to tweak the item upgrade formula, I’m confident that the game’s engine can take it.
What about Money? Abstract it!
Now that magic items are out of the picture, the need for money in the game changes. Depending on how you use it in your games there are a few things you can do.
If you want to have money to cover inns, bribes, mundane equipment and consumables (magic/alchemical), you can keep distributing the remaining money/potion parcels.
On the other hand, if you are like me and want to focus on heroics rather than accounting, you can eliminate Gold Pieces altogether since the main reason why they exist in 4e (Magic Items) is no longer relevant with the above house rule.
To do so, I’m seriously thinking of introducing a new skill called ‘Wealth’. This skill would be based on either Wisdom or Charisma (player’s choice) and could be taken by any class at level 1. It would represent the PC’s access to some abstracted form of wealth such as land, real estate, coinage, gems, debts (owned to the PC) and investments.
The concept still needs work in my mind (and you could help me here) but I see it as a skill a PC can use whenever you need to spend abstract material resources to obtain goods or services. The DC of such a skill use would be scaled with PC levels but also based on the value of what the PCs wants to obtain.
The skill could be used for:
- Pay for inns/food (when it’s a relevant challenge)
- Obtain an adventure map
- Repair equipment
- Bribe a NPC
- Purchase consumable magic/alchemical items (DC equivalent to item level, maybe put a limit per adventure)
- Purchase a ritual (DC equivalent to item level, maybe put a limit per adventure)
A failed ‘wealth’ check would likely impose a cumulative -2 penalty to the skill until the end of the adventure (meaning you have temporary liquidity issues). Also, like I’ve been doing with my games lately, a failed wealth check could grant the PC what he/she wants… but maybe something bad would also happen, some sort of unexpected plot twist.
Mwa HA HA HA! Hum, sorry, old habits.
Okay, the whole thing still needs to be worked on, but you have the gist of it: getting rid of Magic Item parcels to replace them by an abstract, player-controlled system of Magic Attribution. Once done, the Magic Item economy is no longer relevant so you can find ways to make wealth and money more abstract.
I’m going to try it in my next campaign and I’ll let you know how it works.
Thoughts? Ideas? I’ll update it with the best suggestions so feedback time, I know I’m not the only one in that position.
Please spread the post around if you like the idea.
Design: Yan Décarie and Phil Ménard. Development: Phil Ménard with help of Graham Poole and Dave Chalker.
I love the idea of a Wealth skill. Love it to heck. However I wouldn’t make it a skill. I’d make it some kind of background benefit instead so as to not have to mess with existing systems too much. Another thing to consider, is that maybe instead of losing items, the PC’s items might level up with him or her. So the mundane sword the PC had before becomes the Level 4 sword he gets in his level-up, perhaps.
.-= Wyatt´s last blog ..The Clouded Palace: Part 1 =-.
I like that your idea saves the DM a lot of the work, and lets the players bring an item a long with them. I’ve always thought if you craft the perfect item for your character that fits into his idiom, it is sad to leave it behind because it no longer is up to your power level (e.g. “What do you mean Exaclibur is only +2??”) .
The only downside to this or even the wishlist method is that it feels like it takes away the excitement of uncovering a cool item in an old ruin or wresting a magical amulet away from an evil wizard-king. Plus there is also some excitement with “oh a scroll of stone to mud…. what can we do with this?”
I did like the Wealth skill. Savage worlds has interesting mechanic with their rich/poor backgrounds that similar in spirit, i think.
.-= Mike K´s last blog ..What to do in an off-week =-.
@Wyatt: The skill system is elegant that by going up one every 2 levels, it represents the relative wealth of PCs increasing. I’d be for calling it something else than a skill, but I’d stick to the +5+1/2 per level mechanic.
Upgrading a level 4 Sword of Foo +1 with a level 7 Sword of Foo +2 can be explained by an upgrade… I just put the ‘lose the item’ caveat so that there isn’t 2 swords of Foo in the party’s inventory after the upgrade. Otheerwise I can see a hellish racket form where PCs program hand-me downs in some sort of optimized system.
@Mike: In my opinion, 4e did away with exploration of items. I’d actually suggest that DM use Artifact instead of magic item as strange treasure. I’d also leave rituals too.
However, my alternate proposal is to leave everything as is and chose all items for the party, but allow PCs to sell unwanted/obsoleted items at 80%. It won’t break the game at all now that manufacturing items cost 100% of item costs.
interesting post.
determining treasure parcels is my least favourite aspect of dm-ing.
your methods are a touch extreme for my tastes.
leave it in the hands of the players. if they can’t be bothered why should you? a few adventures with no magic items will likely inspire them to put in the effort.
explain that you put in x number of hours outside of the actual session to organise the campaign, the least they can do is spend 15 minutes to rummage for some loot lists
failing that totally randomise it.
It seems to me that d20 Modern had a very similar solution to you’re wealth skill.
http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Wealth.php
You could certainly amend it so that instead of a profession, people can gain +2 to their starting wealth score, instead of another background benefit. Instead of a Profession check each level, there’s you’re charisma/wisdom check.
.-= Brian Liberge´s last blog .. =-.
@Greg: That’s all right. I’m not known for doing things halfway with my game. The ‘stop doing it until players notice’ bit is also entirely valid. When the complaints start you point them to the google doc (or Wave) you shared with everyone.
And to randomize it, you can use Asmor’s tools on http://www.asmor.com.
@Brian: My inspiration for ‘wealth’ was Burning Wheel’s ‘resource’ attribute and I see that d20 Modern’s wealth was very similar… I’ll investigate more. And I like your idea of trading the background/profession bonus for a bonis on Wealth… simulates the ‘born of a noble family’ trait well… but I sense an exploit there… maybe a +1 bonus (or a +2 in your hometown only)
@Chatty:
Quite an interesting take! I find the “wealth” skill idea interesting…
I would be tempted to use “streetwise” instead – as a form of “bartering”. See what interesting ideas you’re getting when you fail that one?
I’m not certain about entirely abstracting money – I have fond memory of adventuring to acquire wealth (castle and staff don’t pay for themselves), working for food (I love bards, right?), or simply bartering for an item because I didn’t have the funds to purchase it.
Depending on your kind of players, fiddling with finances can be fun… or it can be a downright chore.
If you’re focusing on the heroics and your players like to assume they are wealthy, then perhaps the total abstraction is the way to go.
@Wyatt:
Our current DM was rather fond of the “item that grows with you” concept – we’ve had it in a few campaigns. The weapon actually fed off our XP (player’s choice) and gained levels, constantly adapting to our needs.
It was a rather cool magical item… but also stumbled upon what Mike K. is referring to in his post…
@Mike K:
I agree with you here – finding odd and fantastical magical items as treasure has always been one of the most flavorful aspects of RPing – at least for me.
While it did not happen all that often (magic was a rare thing in our old campaigns), we absolutely loved fiddling with new items, trying to figure out what they did and how to operate them.
I feel 4th edition’s handling of magic kills that buzz if you follow it to the letter, but no one is forcing you!
Our current DM combined with the temporary paranoia of one of our PCs ended up as a cool scene when the PC decided that a mirror we found in the loot had to be magical and be some component of a foul ritual.
At first, the mirror was just a plain mirror… but the PC was so determined to find something odd with it that the DM had to go along with the concept.
.-= Eric Maziade´s last blog ..On the road to Spellgu- postmortem =-.
I’m actually shocked that this wasn’t inspired by d20 modern. As soon as you mentioned abstracting away wealth, my thoughts immediately shot to d20 modern’s wealth checks, and then your solution just reinforced that idea in my head.
I loved the wealth check in theory, but in practice I really disliked it, primarily because of the fact that it could and would be changed, depending on what you roll, on the relative value of things you’re trying to buy, etc. Took what was an extremely elegant idea and made it too complicated, imho.
.-= Asmor´s last blog ..Random Encounters: Twenty =-.
http://thievescant.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/goodbye-magic-items-hello-pc-talent/
A discussion that runs parallel to this one from my blog awhile ago. I like what you’ve done here, but need to sleep on it before I make a more intelligent post.
For different reasons, my group has been kicking around a similar variation on the traditional 4E economy. What we’ve done is separated the carefully balanced magic item allotment from the rest of the setting economy. Players have a budget of “magic item points” that increases from level to level. Effectively, the budget for a given level is equal to the cash value of the starting gear for that level, as outlined in DMG 143. The DM and players work together to maintain the budget; if a player is over budget for more than a short period, a reason is found to shed or lose items; likewise, if a player is short of his budget, the player is given more opportunities to acquire more items.
This budget can work side by side with standard treasure parcels and wish lists, but neither of those things are required. As long as the budget is observed by player and DM alike, more or less treasure parcels won’t upset the game balance one whit. If a particular PC wants to horde his gold and buy a keep, he can. If another PC spends his nights gamboling and carousing, he can. If yet another PC lives an ascetic lifestyle, he can do so as well.
I’m sure there are plenty of possible exploits and loopholes in this method that a crafty player could take advantage of, but for my group of mature, trustworthy, and cooperative players, I think it works perfectly to maintain magic item balance while still allowing leeway for roleplaying with wealth. The amount of extra work involved is debatable; one could argue that the numbers that need to be tracked should be tracked normally anyway, and there might even be time saved if the DM decides to loosen up on the parcel allotment.
Every attempt to use a wealth system to replace money I’ve ever played has ended up being disappointing. I’ve actually found that Shadowrun uses the best system by having the players buy a lifestyle. By doing this, all basic costs are covered, and you don’t have to deal with the bookkeeping of most purchases.
Another option I’ve considered for 4e and magic items is to remove levels from them entirely, and base that on the players. The concept being that most of an items magic comes from the spirit of the wielder, so a stronger wielder gets more benefit from a magic sword than a weaker one.
Mechanics wise, just make all magic items a character uses function at that character’s level. This gives you the opportunity to price all magic items in a manner that doesn’t create a ludicrous economy whereby one sword is worth the gross domestic product of a kingdom.
.-= Jeff Carlsen´s last blog ..Savage Mondays – November 9, 2009 =-.
I have to admit that I balk from the idea of magic items being completely in the hands of the players. Not from a grognardic “it’s the DM’s domain!” perspective but more from an “I enjoy seeing how the DM allocates and explains what we find” perspective.
Of course, I’m the sort of player that makes the DM’s job easy by giving him a wish list of 100+ items across a span of 9 levels.
As for “wealth”, once you take purchased magic items out of the equation, I’m not sure you really need any substantial rules for wealth at all. Obtaining favours and services can be adequately covered by diplomacy, streetwise and intimidate with the relevant player putting the appropriate narrative spin on their skill roll.
.-= Colmarr´s last blog ..Rescue at Rivenroar =-.
Whenever I plan out treasure, I only take into account the level of the item a party member should have. Then I tell them what level of item they should get at the end of a particular adventure, and they get to decide what the item is. It takes a lot of the guesswork out of treasure prep and still maintaining character choice and magic item balance. It is not as immersive as being given an item that was handpicked, but no one has complained yet (and if they did, I already have a cop-out prepared, just in case).
Yeap I dislike the chore of giving out the items. I don’t mind the thought exercise of where to put them and how to get them in the game but getting the players to help me out on what to give them is like pulling teeth with a couple of players.
I love the idea of getting rid of money. Truth be told although I do track the gold I put out its only very very rough and I have no idea if the players are really tracking their gold or lying.
I even gave them as their very first item one of those hampers and then said “Now I don’t have to ask you to track food or water” “Oh I’d be careful if I was you” said one of my player/ex-dm’s “Don’t worry” says me “things can go as quick as come in this world!!!”
In addition to Burning Wheel, Diaspora has a nice wealth system.
The trick to using any wealth system is simply to get player buy-in: As long as the players accept and do not fight the rules, they work fine. Just as with rules in general.
.-= Tommi´s last blog ..TSoY in space: The inhuman =-.
The only thing I have against this is that there’s a certain suspension of disbelief. These items just drop out of the sky, do they?
.-= Katana Geldar´s last blog ..Four day encounters? =-.
@Katana Geldar: Thats not how I read it I read it as you still work out how everyone got them but maybe you do some flash backs or off screen work… Suspension of disbelief… how about talking Dragons now thats suspension of disbelief 😀
I was thinking about this idea on the train this morning and a though occurred to me. While this idea sounds appealing to me, it completely seems to ruin one of the iconic tools of D&D.
The Dragon’s Horde
I’ve got my party very scared of Dragons right now. To the point where they fought a Blue Dragon on side of a Britain side island, showed up at a coastal town on the other side, and asked if there were any local dragons before deciding to stay the night.
But I know they will go back after that Dragon, due to it’s horde. How could we keep a wealth check system and still offer that appeal with out affecting balance?
.-= ScorpiusDM´s last blog .. =-.
Whoa… talk about strong response both positive and, well, reserved. That means the we’re a lot out there mulling this over. Thanks for the comment, I’ll try to hit a few.
I’ll note that there’s more than one way to hack the game to meet our needs… my proposal being just one way of looking at it.
@Eric: Replacing the ‘wealth’ skill with a combination of already existing skill is also valid (as Colmarr suggests). I liked that ‘Wealth/Ressources’ added the possibility of having adventurers who had an independent fortune… it brings new depth to the range of characters if not everyone starts as a near penniless hero.
In my opinion, your fond memories of acquiring concrete wealth was in a game you could not buy Magic Items in (2e), this assumption no longer applies by default in 4e. I’m willing to bet that you won’t see a Stronghold Builder’s guide with GP values for traps.
@Asmor: With rule 42 and a simple sub-mechanic to tax resources after a failed check (like in Burning Wheel), I feel it can be elegant. I’ll give it a try in my next campaign and offer Wealth as a feat… but played like a skill.
@xerosided: Interesting take on it. I guess it can be abused (especially with trading items) but you have the proper formula in place. Like Tommi says, you have player buy in… so everything works.
@Jeff: Good system… so I assume that players can level up weapons as they level up due to their innate power manifesting in their gear. My proposed change is compatible with that… you could explain the ‘upgrade at each level’ to be due to PC’s innate potential.
@Colemarr: If all players hand in wishlist, there are no issues and everything works fine. And a DM would be entirely justified to say ‘wishlist or no items”
KenkakuKnight: That’s exactly what my Yan’s does in his game. He keeps it even simpler. On the Dragon’s Hoard you find 25 000 GP and a level 11 item, a level 10 and a level 9… you choose.
I’m a bit bothered by the narrative break caused by this… I’d rather have the player give me a good story about how his weapon become more powerful… but I’m really not that interested in 4e magic items anymore so it’s an element of the game’s immersion I’m willing to let go so we can focus on other parts of the story.
@Tommi: I’ll check Diaspora. Thanks.
@Katana: They don’t drop for the skies. Pete is right in his assesment. You can require that PCs explain how they got the item or where. Many players like to plan things ahead and may have an item ready before the level up. They might chime in after they slay a dragon, saying that so or so item could be in the hoard.
D&D is a team game… and having players do some of the heavy lifting that the DM usually does is a good thing. I’ve seen how player input can enrich games in the various experiments I’ve run over the last 6 months and I’m confident that my proposed change goes in the same direction.
@ScorpiusDM: If you time the Dragon Horde before a level up, the hoard would have all the upgraded items… as for the actual money… well you can play it like an abstract value. You tell all PCs that they found enough gold and silver to make their lives easier. I’d give a +2 or +4 bonus to all wealth checks until the end of the adventure or something. Or maybe a permanent +1 bonus.
Then again… and that applies to the whole thing, if as a group you are cool with the economy as it is, don’t touch it. I’m prone to open a game’s hood and fiddle with the elements in it. Heaven knows 4e is hacking friendly.
I make my players assign Attack, AC, and Save as primary, secondary and Tritiary at the start of the campaign. Then at Level 1 you get a +1 to primary and level 2 you get a +1 to secondary and third a +1 to tritiary. Basicly I make the +s of the magic items a function of your level and not of the economy. Then I place a “Flamming Sword” in a treasure pile, instead a Flaming sword +2 in a hoard. It makes magic items and money more intriguing since I can make them all rare without destroying the game balance.
I keep the level dependant functions of powers and abilities of magic items and let them “level up” with the character, so if a Wand has a better set of saves or damage at level 12, when the PC hits level 12, the magic item goes up with them. (+ or – depending on What they picked as primary, secondary and tritiary). While most players always pick attack as primary, it doesn’t bug me, since players seek the sword of truth and not the amulet of saving me from fireballs as their epic tale.
Also, monetary escalation is capped, and players arn’t hauling around items they could never make change for in a normal town (try r’ping with your players the lack of an inn keepers ability to make change for an astral diamond, it gets silly).
The best side effect from this (besides easier time prepping) is that every magic item is special, not just the ones in my character’s level range. A thundering longbow will always inspire awe and fascination, and no longer be something for play money when a player hits 21st level.
Just my thoughts
Wish I had the time to really comments but the comments have given so many idea… I’ll use a variant to Phil idea in my own game.
Removing book keeping has always been High on my list and gold tracking his pretty much the last thing that still bugs me… 😉
I like the idea of a Wealth trait/ skill. By making it a skill, everyone can try to do it because they get stat bonus plus half-level, but someone trained in it (which could be a combination of acumen and access to resources) would be much better at it.
However it wouldn’t work well in my game. My players like money. They like getting it and they like spending it. In my current D&D campaign the players are fledgling merchants that use adventuring windfalls to finance the growth of their trading company.
As for magic items, I don’t worry about wish lists or having specific treasure parcels. If they really want a specific item they will investigate getting it made, which can become adventure fodder. Otherwise I try to find something interesting, and as often as not they have to deal with a bad guy using it against them before they get a hold of it.
.-= Oz´s last blog ..Wal-Mart’s Risky Sick Policy =-.
The idea of players being able to pick out every magical piece of equipment they find is something that I strongly disagree with. It breeds a sense of entitlement, placing magical items in the PHB was already bad enough in that regard.
Part of the joy of magic items is that they are powerful, but not always exactly what you had in mind. The mixed blessing creates situations where players get to make tactical choices: Do I use my magic greatsword knowing that I have to forgo using my shield or do I stick with my mundane longsword which I have a couple feats sunk into and lets me keep the shield?
Gaining random magic items fosters organic character growth. I never would have taken Dwarven war axe proficiency, but finding a +1 flaming Adamantine Dwarven war axe caused me to choose to advance my character in a new way that I had not planed.
.-= katallos´s last blog ..The Story So Far Part 2 =-.
I’ve never been a fan of book keeping and never really make money a focus of my game. I never really remember to keep track of the cost of inns or food and what not, because that’s not a level of resource management I find interesting. I’m goign to have to think on this and see how to apply it to my game.
@Katalos: That right to magical gear is bred into the core philosophy of 4e, the entitlement is motivated. Not following it is as valid as the hacks I propose… although I don’t think it’s a DM-only decision anymore… but that’s another debate.
I really don’t find 4e magic items to be powerful or mysterious enough for them to play a significant role as ‘exploration rewards”. I’m happy to see that others disagree and uphold this tradition, but I’m also happy to see that others have concluded like I did, moving to exploring other aspects of the game and leaving money management and Item distribution in the hands of those who care about it more than I do.
But then again, that’s just me doing stuff based on my group’s needs. You won’t see me calling for one-trueisms.
GURPS also had a wealth system. There should be ways to up the level by +X along the way for those that really want to be WEALTHY. There’s more to leading the thieves guild than high level, don’t ‘cha know.
I think your ideas are certainly workable, but I have a problem with the emergence of magic items out of nowhere. Particularly, I can’t abide NPCs having great magic items gathering dust in a chest or vault and not being used until the opportunistic PCs plunder them. Did the NPC not realize the value of the item he had? Was he too dumb to figure out how to use it? If so, would he not have sold or traded it for something more to his liking? If an NPC has a magic item, he sure as heck will find a way to use it! Players appreciate receiving magic items more if they had to overcome them in a battle. They get to see what this baby can do and prize it all the more because of it. When you dole out magic like lollipops to good little children, it loses some of its panache and history.
The idea of items gaining power as the character advances has some merit and certainly shows up in fantasy literature. D&D 3.5 scion items work this way. I would consider allowing this, but the character might have to invest experience points or perform some costly ritual to enhance the power of his item. Otherwise, game balance might become an issue as characters ratchet up the power level of their arsenal of magic items.
Don’t let my opinions dissuade you. Keep rattling the cage. It definitely inspires us and will lead to improvements overall.
Rattling the cage is something I love to do… The suggestions and comments on this thread have been excellent so far.
A friend of mine working in Seattle just reminded me that Adventurer’s Vault had item leveling rules (I forgot about them).
He also told me that instead of being a skill, Wealth could make a great trait/background that would grant bonuses to Diplomacy/Streetwise/Intimidate to obtain stuff in a game where money was abstracted.
Here’s a random idea: Instead of attribute bonus use something that depends on the financial situation the character is in.
For example: -10 if in hostile land or almost uninhabited wasteland (though in this case actually playing out the attempt to secure given items would be more appropriate), -5 if a stranger in a strange land, -2 if just a stranger, 0 if in some place where you have been for a while, +2 if well-known, +5 if in home base, +10 if you are the king (or some similar figure of evident social power and influence).
Further modifiers are possible: +2 if member of some organisation that can supply the required goods, +5 if in power in such organisation.
Quest rewards: Killed a dragon? +10 wealth in the nearby settlement (you can’t carry all of the around, now can you?), +5 or +2 as distance increases. The queen owes her life to you? +10 on any roll she approves of, given that she is consulted first.
.-= Tommi Brander´s last blog ..TSoY in space: The inhuman =-.
Shopping for magical items takes the magic out of it (except for potions or scrolls). Also the question of what happens to the originals is raised. Plot can help but those who won’t part with an item or without affiliations may feel railroaded. Do the wishlists really enable the game?
Using residuum to boost item levels powers or finding item recipes or components is much better and offers plot (and skill challenge) options. Plus it gives people reason to hate rust monsters.
I’m of two minds about the wealth check. I’d use this if characters are tied to an organisation with a maximum limit (if you’re the richest and most powerful individual in the organisation, you get to pay for these others). You have to assign an arbitrary value for the check. If you’re a freelancer, then you need the money!
One thing I tried with some success was to run an equipment slate. Character spends say 50gp on ‘stuff’ and conveniently had any mundane equipment within the character’s current encumbrance range. When they say they’ve got it, mark off the cost and add it to the character sheet. They recharge by spending coin at a suitable location.
@Katalos: Having the right items was essential to survival since 3.xE, and players like knowing what a whatsit does. Or you end up with a lot of DMGs floating around the table like we did – somewhat jarring!
.-= satyre´s last blog ..pretender to the throne =-.
Frankly, most of this relies on how cinematic vs. simulationist your game is. Most D&D games I run, I never make my players buy ammunition for their bows and x-bows. But if I ran a GURPS survival horror, I dole out bullets in single digits, and require my players to get creative with the equipment.
So I suppose the real question would be where you would like to focus your player’s options. While a great story can be part of any game, I think genre will be your biggest influence on how you treat money, wealth (I believe they are seperate), and equipment. Example: Mutants and Masterminds (Superhero Genre) wealth is a 2point (out of your 150 starting point) feat you can tack on, in White Wolf (Personal Horror/Suspense/Mystery) it is a multi-tiered background that maximizing will take 5/7ths of your points (in that area), and in Dungeons and Dragons (High Fantasy, in this edition) you start with 100gp and only the cloths on your back if you bought them.
If you’re going to implement this to knock out bookkeeping, Phil, then knock out bookkeeping. Why bother with a Skill? It’s just one more thing to track. 4E already gives you a nice table of ‘wealth by level’ if you really need a count of gold pieces, but really.. what are gold pieces good for? You’ve already accounted for magic items. I doubt anyone tracks money spent on “ale and wenches” in this edition. Maybe arrows/bolts and adventuring supplies if you track those individually or to build a keep. Maybe. Other than that, wealth is used for one thing mechanically – interact with NPCs. Why not just make wealth a bonus to skill checks? Or maybe a Daily and/or Encounter Utility Power? The player gains a bonus to a single check in some proportion to their wealth (which is really just a derivative of level at this point). You can take the Wealth feat(s?) to increase this bonus or tag on riders like a Domain or Combat Style feat. I could even see it using ‘power points’ like a Psion based on how much wealth you want to use.
Way way way back, the Marvel Heroes roleplaying game had a similar concept which I’ve been mulling over in my head as well. Just another source to check out.
I’d be tempted to treat money like a hybrid between skills and hitpoints. To purchase something, a DC is set based on the expense and you make a wealth skill check. Success means you get it.
Failure has 3 options:
1) You don’t get it.
2) You get it, but you have to use up wealth points to make up the difference. Wealth points represent windfalls that don’t produce ongoing income, like a dragon’s hoard or a favour from the queen. This way, a character could buy a castle with their dragon hoard money without having oer needing the power to buy a castle every week. (though they may need wealth checks to maintain the castle)
3) Mousegard style, you still make the purchase, but now you’re in debt or owe a favour. Depending on the amount of failure, the bigger the debt or failure. This could mean a constant minus on wealth checks, constant wealth checks to pay off the debtor.
Wealth points could be replenished through adventuring, or there could be a healing surge mechanic to replenish them over time, with large windfalls representing “temporary hitpoints”. These don’t represent gold pieces, per se, but rather bursts of income to help you pay for things.
As another option, large amounts of wealth points could be traded for a temporary or permanent bonus to the wealth skill as players invest their money. And as stated before, wealth checks can be used to increase diplomatic efforts- give regularly to charity and receive +2 to all checks inside the village.
I didn’t think this would be the sort of thing my players would go for. At the end of every encounter I hear “what did we find”. That was until one of my players sent me this link. Now it is something I’m going to propose to my players.
I’ll probably propose it something like this:
“I’m the DM. You will do what I say!”
No, that isn’t how it will go at all. I’ll probably use guidelines something like these:
1) Name your weapons because they are going to be staying with you for awhile. I like the idea of the items level with the PCs rather than new items.
2) Every level will result in their items increasing in power.
3) There will not be any treasure items found after encounters (most of the time)
4) A new skill called wealth will be created that is used to purchase things. Skills like intimidate, diplomacy and streetwise can be used as assisting skills on skill checks.
My characters are at 4th level right now. I’d have to think about a way to bring the skill in. But I think it could work….if the group goes for it.
This thread has reached the ‘I lost control’ of it… which is awesome. I won’t respond individually anymore but am reading it all. I’m amazed at how polarized thoughts are on this. From a mostly common agreement that something feels ‘off’ about treasure parcels the approaches to address this are vastly different.
These suggestions are going to percolate in my mind and I may try an hybrid approach.
In my campaign we adopted a system that we call the “magic item stem cell”. Basically, I don’t decide on the specific item, instead I tell the players what level items they can expect to see in upcoming treasure parcels. (e.g. level 3, level 4, level 5, level 6). This gives them a chance, if they choose, to look and figure out what they might want to take. When a magic item is found, I tell the players what level it is and we have a roll off. The highest roll wins. That player chooses an item of that level and adds it to their character sheet. Each player that wins a roll off isn’t included in the next one until all players have won an item.
It isn’t perfect and does require you to keep track of who has rolled (though in my case the players maintain the list of who has gotten items and who hasn’t). But I’ve found that my players like it and really look forward to finding a new item and getting to roll for it. I encourage you to give it a try.
Fair enough. ‘Lost Control’ it is. But a hell of a job of ‘Cage Rattling’.
While this thread was being ultra-productive and working with ideas in line with Chatty’s, I didn’t feel a different view to be really useful. Now, I feel I am more weighing in with an opinion. That being said, not one should take this as anything but supportive of all the brainstorming.
I read the OP, and I agree that one of the weaknesses in this particular ruleset is the placement, acquisition, and affect of treasure, particularly magical treasure.
Doomdreamer puts it very correctly when he mentions the simulationist vs cinematic. This gets part of the issue. My particular game revolves around the economy. Much of the reason many of my players adventure is to collect and spend said items, and playing out much of the time spent gaining and finding every particular coin and strange potion is part of all my groups enjoyment.
Another facet of this is in the cinematic style games, Wuxia derived, mythic-styled, whatever, the character power gain is substantial enough that as you noted, magical items are a lot less special. I think this is the same thing many GM’s complained about decades ago when the original DMG came out with magic items lists with GP values and some GM’s actually placed magic Items shoppes in their worlds, a change that was already referenced briefly. I will always be in the ‘keep magic special’ camp, and any rules that work in a different direction need to be looked at through that lens carefully.
Maybe I am just too much of a setting designer and not enough of a gamer, but the simulationist side of me needs to place the treasures and items in the setting where they would logicaly be. Gary mentions a piece of this when he talks about creatures and NPC’s using the special items they have. (andone who has read the beginnings of the ‘goblins’ cartoon remembers this, because it is ridiculous enough to be funny). But that is my issue.
Keep up all the good work. The fact that this thread turned beanstalk is because here, every viepoint counts.
.-= LordVreeg´s last blog ..added The Upper Hill-Steel Isle =-.
@Chatty: Thanks for the kind words about my system. An interesting side effect of magic items getting much of their power from the wielder is that that +6 sword you stole from the demigod’s coat rack is only a +3 in your level 12 hands.
But I think you’re mistaken in thinking that the treasure parcels are the problem. In my mind it’s a far superior system for delivering appropriate levels of wealth. The problem is with magic items themselves in 4e. They are too fundamental to the math and the power curve, due to sheer numerical bonus, but most of them lack anything exciting that make them feel special. So of course giving them out to your players has become a chore. You don’t get that feeling of, “Oh, they are going to love this!”. And as a player, a magic item’s power is almost always just one more thing to track that you’ll rarely use.
But players, in my experience, do love their money, and they want things to buy with it. Magic items fit that bill. But instead of what we had in 3rd edition, where players had difficulty choosing between good options, now they have trouble finding anything that excites them.
.-= Jeff Carlsen´s last blog ..Introducing a New Player: Be Well Prepared =-.
my next homebrew system, will remove items as they currently exist in Dnd and replace them with a new system that relies on a ‘Trained’ System.
A wizard trained in Arcane Items can’t use the Martial Broadsword.
That being said a Wizard has the option to be Martial Trained.
Secondly depending on the level of the item, it has slots to attach other ‘Trained’ schools items, a Primal Feather of Haste on the a Martial Shield can increase the Dex AC bonus.
My players love looting bodies and finding new gear, so this system works really well for my players and current Homebrew system. I do have the freedom to invent whatever i want though, so that is easier.
Stealing the wealth Skill, Thanks chatty.
It reminds me of the way that Champions RPG handled wealth – money was an abstract and your wealth level determined what you could easily afford to do. If you tried to do something beyond your wealth level, it had to be DM approved.
I like alot of the suggestions here and I plan to bring them up to my Players at the next session. In the end, I’m inclined to do what they feel is most “fun” even if I hate toiling over treasure parcels.
I tried to take a look on the 4e treasure parcel system from the designer point of view: did some reverse engineering and figured out what the purchasing power of the treasure is supposed to be. Turns out there are some very simple multipliers involved:
Total (entire party) monetary treasure gained during level X will be enough to buy exactly:
– 2 permanent magic items of level X, or
– 10 permanent magic items of level X-5, or
– 10 rituals of level X, or
– 50 consumables of level X
This could be used to give out an extra item “budget” to the party or individual players, or used to replace the gp costs of items with level/DC type of cost or to add to the DM magic item budget for the level. Anyone up to doing the probability math to calculate wealth check DC’s that follow this budget?
I’m also gravitating towards the use of Streetwise skill for purchases, it already states “find out where to get what you need”, it’s not a big stretch to extend that to add “… and purchase it”. Also, at least in our group, the skill does not get that much use otherwise so making it more important does help to raise Streetwise from its dump skill status.
@Tommi:
“-10 if in hostile land
-5 if a stranger in a strange land
-2 if just a stranger
0 if in some place where you have been for a while
+2 if well-known
+5 if in home base”
Compare this to Streetwise base DC:
“Typical settlement 15
Hostile settlement 20
Totally alien settlement 30”
Although, for purchases I’d probably rather use a DC based on the level of the item being bought.
Describing magic items as boring seems very strange to me and I’m surprised your players don’t actively seek items to improve their classes, this sort of inherently keeping a wishlist up to date.
My players LOVE poring over Magic Items to see what additional class combos they can sneak in. Some powers and tweaks are only available through magic items and not through feats, powers or class features and the gathering the correct combination of items to enhance your characters build really appeals to my guys
Example: One of our party is a Dragonborn cleric that has decided to really work on the Dragonborn Fury angle (the race feature that gives +1 to hit on bloodied) and turn him into this ‘hulk’ style character who gets MUCH angrier when he gets bloodied.
(the character sheet is here btw: http://iplay4e.appspot.com/characters/viewSheet?xsl=fullpage&key=agdpcGxheTRlchALEglDaGFyYWN0ZXIYkV4M)
The mixture of magic items he’s grabbed for himself means he gains the following when bloodied:
+1 to hit, AC & Ref,
+2 damage & move.
He can also activate the daily power on his bracers for an additional +5 damage.
And then he can activate a power on his armour to gain him temporary hit points, keeping him bloodied with all the benefits yet able to take a little more damage to stay safe.
Magic items in 4E are so much more interesting than the +1, +2 of older versions, my players see them as extensions of their class and love coming up with new combos. They simply tell me the combos, I note down the item levels then work out where to plonk the appropriate items over the next few adventures as fits the parcel budget, simple!
I am intrigued, however, by the idea of using a skill to abstract costs. I think this needs some work but it’s certainly viable. We still keep track of money for the purchasing of rituals and ritual components but frankly everything else is so far below their current net wealth that we don’t even bother worrying about anything below 100GP’s of cost and just assume they cover it.
I think a way of limiting ritual and ritual component purchase is required without relying on just heaping bags and bags of money at the adventurers at the end of every adventure, this will require some mulling, you have given me food for thought!
And here I thought the parcel “system” was a generic gauge of what treasures are worth, not a strict “mechanic” of the rules. If you use it to keep “balance” (ie: much boring prep and all-too predictable “rewards” for the PCs) I feel for you.
My suggestion: try putting in items that feel right and make sense, regardless of their level or function. If the PCs can use them, fine… if not, they can always sell them or break them down for residuum. Don’t sweat the balance, it is a thankless task and practically a mandate for boring treasures in your game.
If you find 4E magical items boring — I know I do — why not choose items from previous editions, adapt their powers to 4E and approximate their value?
Sure, it means a bit of additional work for your least favourite part of the game, but at least it might rekindle the “magic” in magic item.
.-= Mr Topp´s last blog ..Trotsky, the vampire =-.
Seems like a pretty good solution to me. But, though I understand why you’d want to do this, I don’t think it’s something I would do, it least for most campaigns. For me, part of the Dungeons and Dragons experience is finding treasure you know? But I am considering a “D&D Modern” game, which would use a wealth system to represent modern finances.
I’m a fan of giving out item improvements rather than just new items all the time. One idea I had was a magic sword which you improved by engraving extra runes of power; the player might touch the rune to activate the power. One campaign had an paladin with an intelligent weapon inhabited by a celestial that upgraded in power over time in response to heroic acts, while the monk gained divine abilities such as flaming fists.
I don’t know if I’d ditch magic item treasure entirely, since it’s fun to find loot and haggle over how to divide the treasure, but alternative ways to hand out magic can be interesting.
.-= Jonathan Drain´s last blog ..Universal Solution To Every Plothole =-.
I have adopted the “inherent bonus” alternative rules from the DMG2 and now focus only on providing cool, flavorful, meaningful magical items that hold significance for the players both mechanically and story-wise. It requires far less effort and results in a lot more satisfaction than laboring over what items a particular monster will drop or having players create a laundry list of items they want. It also eliminates the need to obsessively count gold pieces or worry about magic items being turned into faerie dust that can be sold.
.-= MJ Harnish´s last blog ..IndieCon – What’s on my “to play” list =-.
I really need to take the time and read the DMG2 cover to cover.
Thanks everyone for your insights and comments. Yan has set up a seemingly solid set of houserules for us based on the original idea and your feedback. We’ll let you know how it pans out.
I think one of my biggest magic item problems with 3.5 and 4.x D&D was the lack of magic items being something profound in both a system and flavor sense. When I think of a magic item, I think of the Moaning Diamond or (original) Rod of Seven Parts. Items that were not just a system addon or mechanicly perfect for the game, but special *because* they broke it. Like when an evil cleric with the Amulet of Pure evil and sucked in Paladin’s city with the earthquake fissure thing. Sometimes, the system needs to step aside for an aweinspiring explosion of wonder (especialy rods of wonder).
@MJ Harnish: Its interesting that you mention the inherent bonus as I just found out about it yesterday while looking in the character builder… I don’t have the DMG2 yet.
@Doom: One thing though is that the Artifacts in 4e absolutely rock.
Were I to remove all Magic Items to give inherent bonuses… I’d keep the artifacts and maker sure they featured heavily in my games.
Personally I think any item with a property rather than just a daily power has the potential to be very interesting in the right hands. The flexibility and opportunity to customise your character further with items is vast
I used a system like this for my final 3.5 campaign, and while mechanically it worked quite well, my players and I did feel that it `lost something’ by removing the discovery of new stuff for their characters to use (and if you ever played/ran high-level 3.x, you know about the tendency for characters to turn into walking equipment racks). My adjustment was actually quite simple — I just started adding in stuff again, on top. Whenever I was preparing a climactic encounter, I’d cast my mind/eyes over the magic items of the appropriate type/level, and I’d throw it in as potential Found Items. This happened pretty rarely, and often required a little extra effort, but seemed to meet both goals (simple, easy-to-adjudicate system and the Fun of Finding) pretty well.
That particular campaign was very abstract: there was no XP, not really any money, and most items were handled by the abstraction. In-game, the characters were imbuing mundane items with special abilities, not finding long-lost relics of a forgotten empire all the time — when they found long-lost relics of forgotten empires, they were actually long-lost relics of forgotten empires (usually clues and/or keys, and occasionally also placed magic items).
The whole post seems to lack self awareness to me.
First on magic items your system is to have players tell you what they want on their characters, and then the two of you work out a story of how it got there. … Pardon my obtuseness I suppose, but how is that different from a wishlist and roleplaying?
Second on Wealth, what you’re describing is *exactly* (not even approximately, *exactly*) a Skill Challenge with Streetwise primary, Diplomacy, Bluff, Insight, and Perception as secondaries.
These aren’t bad ideas. They’re very good ideas… but they’re not innovations, they’re already there in the canon ruleset you say you dislike!
@Frelance: Words fail me. I mean, I guess you’re trying to be helpful and ‘constructive’ since you took the effort to comment, but it’s kind hard to see under all the, as you call it, obtuseness.
There’s a good chance that I had this reflection because the RAW did not meet my needs 100% and instead of complaining about it, I suggested alternatives. Then several dozen people chimed in, bouncing new ideas off the original one, helping me better define what I ‘m looking for to have my needs better addressed. That’s what I love about this blog.
Thanks for your comment. Please don’t let the door hit you on your way out.
@Frelance: The answer is it’s all in the detail… Yes in essence it is like a wish list but…
From the player perspective you do it a level up when your actually away of the table and looking at the character builder to upgrade your character and are actually making a decision not a wish.
For the DM you don’t need to plan where they could potentially find it or force drop in place that would be artificial.
As for the weave it in the story part its only if you need it to ease your suspension of disbelief. I know for one that I won’t invest much time in this and will use at nauseam the “I found it on some dead critter who could no figure out how to use it”. It’s the default case anyway.
As you can see it might not be that big of an innovation but from our perspective it’s a win on all of these front as these detail where annoying us.
Nobody as claimed that every one should use this. Hell where not even going to us it as presented here with all the feedback Phil had. I took the best idea out there to improve it.
So in the future if you fail to see the relevance say it but try doing it without the personal attack.
Some thoughts. What if… magic items were rare. Which is not to say that PCs won’t have some, just that you won’t be finding them all over the place. Instead EVERY magic item is like an artifact, or at least an artifact in the making.
Magic items will “grow” and change over time, and develop a personality (based on the character who is using it over time). Just as players can retrain on level changes, they will be able to retool their tools.
Retooling will be easier at heroic than paragon, as the personality of the items will still be weak. But by the time you hit epic, the items will be much harder to change as their personalities will much more established. (harder to teach an old dog new tricks)
What if…
The “wealth” skill value is controlled by sources of income, which were individually modelled like diseases/curses. (little more paper work, but could provide some interesting hooks)
A track could look something like this (note, I haven’t done any math, so the numbers are just placeholders really)
Repossessed (immediately loose this income source)
Scraping by (sell for +5)
Low income (+1, or sell for +10)
Average income ( +3, or sell for +15)
Doing well ( +5, or sell for +20 )
Best in town ( +8, or sell for +30 )
On a given test you can draw on your income sources to get the value added (or you can sell for a one time larger bonus). However, there is also a chance that the income source itself could become hindered by dipping into it (haven’t figured out if it should be a separate roll, or tied to the original check).
As well characters can do things to cause checks for improvements ( clean up the place, advertise to the right people, bring in a famous bard, break the right knees)
This can also simulate large winfalls such as a dragons horde. These incomes would either have automatic drops in status, or at least much higher chances of them dropping when you tap into them.
All gone (immediately loose this income source)
Just a handful ( +5 )
Bag full (+10 )
Box full (+20)
Room full (+50)
As well it can simulate investments that allow for speculation.
immediately loose this income source
50% of investment returned
100% investment returned
150% investment returned
200% investment returned
500% investment returned
.-= jcdietrich´s last blog ..Charter for Compassion =-.
Love the article. Great ideas. I wouldn’t bother with a new skill for wealth, instead just split out those functions you noted with appropriate skill challenges. Everything you listed (that would fall under Wealth) could be accomplished with the creative use of a variety of skills.
Streetwise, Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate are the most likely contenders. I’d add Thievery and Stealth if you want to go underhanded. Arcana, Nature, History, and Religion could also help a fair amount for acquiring magic gear and info.
– Basically, there’s no need for a new Wealth skill or gold (in my opinion). In the old days, bartering and trade was the big thing anyways.
– Love the idea of giving players gear automatically as they level (something new to look forward to each session). Especially 1st level. Brilliant.
– Special items/artifacts you might want to hand out are still valid. Everyone loves getting new rituals for the party, and items that help with those.
– Things like acquiring mounts and other fleeting possessions can be handwaved by the DM each session as appropriate to the story.
Really interesting concept – the only thing that scares me a little, though, is that I would have to come up with wealth check DCs for each and every peace of equipment. Or wouldn’t I?
And does anyone have a good idea for a rule of thumb regarding how many GP would equate a DC of 10?
I do like the idea of using a Shadowrun like system – one could have wealth levels like “peasant”, “burger” or “prince” to give players some idea how rich they are and what kind of holdings (land, henchmen etc.) they can afford.
Hmmm … didn’t the old D&D expert box have st. like this?
@David: As a matter of fact my last proposition on this. Is pretty close to what you’re saying. I agree that the wealth skill is in no way a necessity.
I know nothing about 4e, so please pardon this idea if it does not fit that system…
Perhaps add a distinction between physically acquiring a magical item and gaining use of the item?
Monster hoards could then allow PCs to acquire some sort of “magical loot points” that symbolize having found some items that need to be analyzed to determine their function, command words, remaining charges, side effects, etc.
The players could then spend these points on magical items they desire. More powerful or rare items require more points in cost as well as more game-time of analyzation.
In addition, postulate that adventurers earn most of their cash by selling unwanted magical loot. Then the GM merely needs to calibrate how many of these loot points per month correspond to a decent/luxurious/extravagant lifestyle, and how many per month are needed to employ various hirelings.
There was a pretty extensive thread on this topic on the Wizards boards a while back. There was even a detailed skill presented.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19938490/Dispensing_with_34Gold34_as_a_real_currency?num=10&pg=1
I’d check out Burning Wheel’s money system. It may be close to what you’re suggesting with a wealth skill.