Hi there everyone, this is Wyatt Salazar, the world’s only biological nuclear reactor (CAUTION CAUTION) from The Spirits of Eden and now also The Amusing Fantasy, standing in for the Chatty DM who’s currently questing for Gen Con, as you know. He still has plenty of healing surges and daily powers left and I wish him the best of luck on that boss battle. But enough about grids.
I’m Okay Guys, I Have 1 HP Left
D&D 4th Edition is my current de-facto choice for gaming. One of my favorite and least favorite additions to the game are the hit point and healing surge systems. There was something about D&D 3.5’s reliance on magic or money for healing that really bothered me, because I liked the rationalization of hit points that D&D 4th Edition uses now, and have always used it.
Losing buckets and buckets of blood and organs in a fight with an ogre only to have a cleric patch you up to lose that many buckets again in the next fight just did not make a lot of sense to me (yes, even with magic). I liked the idea that hit points could represent things easier to recover, like morale or just manly grit. The punch to the face didn’t break your jaw and cause you to cough up your tongue. In fact, it might not have been a clean hit at all, despite the attack connecting and the hit points lost.
Might sound silly to you, but I love that sort of thing, rather than the idea that hit points represent, I don’t know, some esoteric amount of flesh and blood you’ve lost. I also happen to hate hit locations rules. That’s unrelated, but I just do. (Chatty DM: Wyatt, King of the non sequitur)
I like Healing Surges because they represent that ability to get back in the game, because the damage you’ve taken was not fatal. They also allow more than Clerics to heal reliably and potently. A martial character can “heal” himself or others also.
The Problem With This
Healing surges present an illusion of invincibility when looked at over a long term. A player or DM sees 10 healing surges on his Fighter and thinks of it this way: the Fighter can regenerate its full hp two and a half times today. This gives the player a sense of fearlessness and the DM a sense of dread. Your character can die three and a half times today, or become bloodied seven times today, and you’ll be back up in no time, just spend a healing surge and gain that 1/4 of your HP back.
Your instinct might be “well, if players can heal that much, and standard encounters aren’t hurting them, I should have really powerful monsters fight them that can deal a lot of damage, that’ll scare them!”
The problem with this is that it’s not really true – in the short term players can’t spend all their surges whenever they want unless they have enough surge outlets (powers and potions that can heal by spending surges) to cover them.
Second wind covers 1 surge each encounter, leader can do 2 each encounter with class feature powers and more with their other powers, non-leaders tend to have one or two outlets as well, and there’s potions. This may seem like a ton of things, but aside from leaders, I’ve not seen players picking healing powers highly over damaging or buffing powers.
So your super powerful monster may end up killing them all, not scaring them, and they may only be able to spend 2 or 3 healing surges in the process, unlike the grand 100% recoveries you imagined. Rather than add danger and lethality, you nailed the portrait to the wall with a bulldozer.
Usually the longing for gritty, difficult encounters and frail PCs is one that throws back to fantasy literature like Lord of the Rings, where you see heroes running from any enemy that seems too large and generally treating their mortality quite seriously. D&D 4e PCs might try to kill the Balrog and loot the body and that’s a state of mind not many people like.
So before trying to put a Level 15 Balrog analog in your Level 8 game to scare your players out of their metaphorical coat of invulnerability, try a couple of other things first and see how that works in ending the invincibility notion and adding some element of danger (or at least, having your players act like there’s danger).
Wyattlutions To The Problem
So what do you do about this? How do you handle it? Here’s some of the things I do before I even send one enemy out.
•Ask Nicely?: Ask players to act more like regular people would in their situation instead of metagaming. Yes, you’re a legendary general who can make people move out of their turn, but you’d probably still be at least a bit frightened and wary of a 5 story dragon, not thinking about killing and looting it. Treat your character like the only one you’ll have, not an utterly disposable game avatar. Even if you’ve done all your HP math and you’ve realized that a string of balanced encounters probably won’t put a dent in you, don’t act like you own the world because of it. To your PC, healing surges don’t exist. It’s just him getting lucky.
•Tell Them Straight: I often tell my players that I will be presenting encounters that are unbalanced and that they should know this up front, all their metagame analysis will be mostly fruitless. I don’t say this with the intention of actually throwing an Oni at a bunch of level 3 players or to destroy the rules base as they know it. I do it to get them in the mindset that this is going to be my game, not the DMG’s balanced encounter guidelines that they’ve memorized. Even if it IS going to be the DMG’s balanced encounter guidelines in disguise, it can help cause a shift in attitude.
•Burn Surges: Wizard’s of the Coast has begun using this method to get PCs to spend resources. Newer skill challenges, for example, have consequences that require expenditure, or punish failure with the loss of, healing surges. Healing surges are entirely abstract, and if you feel like your players are riding too high and loose because of healing surges, you can now, quite within acceptable rules, find ways to get rid of some of them. Not only that, unless you run them entirely out of surges, this isn’t a highway to a total party kill like an over-leveled encounter might be, and still makes the players more wary.
But if you absolutely must have a high level, extremely dangerous and unbalanced encounter in your game to scare the bejeezus out of your players and make you feel all macho again as a DM, please consider doing the following things:
•Drop Potions Beforehand: The Potion of Vitality may say Level 15, but lets face it, at level 8 or so, the Potion of Healing is crap. 10 hit points per surge is a waste. If you want to have more difficult encounters but don’t want to massacre PCs, drop some of the next tier’s basic healing potion somewhere. This gives PCs a good, reliable healing surge outlet that can keep them from getting stomped, but it doesn’t do damage, doesn’t cripple the opponent, so it won’t downplay the difficulty.
•Have Escape Routes: Aragorn and company didn’t sit there fighting the Balrog, they ran. If your PCs don’t run immediately, give them the option to later. Most PCs playing D&D 4e, I’ve noticed, don’t think that running away is an option. They see it as losing XP because the encounter wasn’t completed. I know, I know, this mentality is unhealthy, trying to maximize the amount of XP you earn in the game isn’t a mindset I want in a PC. But if you give XP for running away, you encourage it as a viable option. Prepare a skill challenge for escaping one of your psycho overpowered combats and reward its successful completion. If they fail it, allow them to try it again, don’t just cut everything off and have them all get wiped by the monster. Show them that the world does have horribly powerful things that they can’t kill, and more importantly, that they don’t have to kill them.
•Add Houserules?: Most people hate house rules, I myself rather like them. I’ve collected a bunch. If you’re thinking of using overpowered encounters to make things gritty, but you also don’t want the players to just suffer endlessly at your grasp, you may be able to tweak the game to allow you to this. We’re moving out of known rules territory here, but it’s worth a look. I don’t think the rules intended for level 8 characters to fight level 15 monsters either, so you might as well break them a little more, no?
Well, that’s what I wanted to talk about today.
However, Chatty told me that I could “even post an anime picture” if I liked, and I’d been searching up and down for what screenshot I wanted to put up here. I decided to go with this animated one from K-On! after careful consideration, because it really illustrates how I view myself giving this information.
One thing I do, is to outright tell them that this is out their leagues.
Example dramatization:
Me to the the character with best Arcana skill- You’ve read account on this monstrosity. It’s a balrog and you know that taking on that fight will end up in all of you being killed.
It’s simple and efficient… If not well they deserve to die! (never happened though)
The way we look at it is that Healing Surges are the new Hit Points. Surges represent the amount of damage your character can really take before he’s out for the count – they represent the real damage that takes a physical toll on the character. Your regular run-of-the-mill Hit Points represent your adrenalin-fuelled ability to carry on during the heat of battle. It’s only when the dust clears (or you use Second Wind mid-battle) do you get chance to take stock and find out whether the blood pouring from your arm is a broken bone or merely a nasty graze. If you spend a Healing Surge, you’re effectively saying “Yep, that one’s going to need more than stitches”.
So, your Fighter with 10 or more Healing Surges can effectively take a lot of serious punishment before dropping. A Wizard, considerably less.
Hey, it works for us 😀
And when it comes to throwing critters at them beyond their ability, I say go right ahead. You players need to learn that it’s good to run away once in a while!
.-= greywulf´s last blog ..Down and out in old dungeon town =-.
@Yan: There are definitely merits to the direct approach. I’m a bigger fan of subtlety myself, but I at least hint at the monster being very powerful in the stat block. But a part of me thinks it’s not as fun unless the players actually try fighting it for a little bit.
@Greywulf: I’m not fond of having the HP system represent injury, but that is a good way to look at it. What would you rationalize for the death saving throw ticks?
.-= Wyatt´s last blog ..Vehicles of Eden (beta post) =-.
@greywulf et Wyatt: The problem with making them run away is that player have only your description as a feel on the actual creature power. If your ambiguous they’ll think that they can probably take it… Then surely they won’t think of running away until one of them as fallen. At this point you hit a serious problem. As the real danger of their situation as become apparent, one of the player can no longer run away … Of course he could get caught and the other try to rescue him but you’ve just condone one of your player to sit and watch for several hours…
Like I said before I for one goes for the obvious hint at the start of the fight.
-Your guts tells you that this is going to be a hard fight. (hard encounter)
-You’ll need to be creative to get through that one. (too hard encounter with twist that makes it feasible)
-etc..
There’s nothing like a whack of the obvious bat of obviousness to get the idea across… 😉
I too don’t use Hit Points as life-points. Having been around the game long enough to read Gary’s treatises about Hit Points and the one minute combat round, I’m well aware of the abstraction of Hit Points.
Yet, when the game uses an expression as graphic as “Bloodied” and I see PCs going from near-death to peek condition within 6 seconds, it’s sometimes becomes a stretch of the mind to explain things. I do like the players do and I just discard the whole thing and focus on trying to defeat the player’s game plan.
As for creating a credible threat, my most successful endeavor (apart from using Beholders) was to set a string of scenes, featuring 3 combats, in one 24 hour period. When Yan said ‘I’m out of Surges’ I knew that things were going to be hairy… (It turned out to be too hairy, but now I know how to properly gauge it now).
Well we did try to circumvent the situation and then run away in the actual… So in light of this artcile it was a complete success you did make your player run for their lives… 😉
If the players aren’t running away when they should, I hint for them to run before anyone dies, usually by telling them they could choose to use a skill challenge. I just like to have a few rounds of adrenaline-fueled combat so they don’t feel bored with “see monster, run away” scenes.
As for explaining things, I’m more a story-based DM for story-based gamers for the most part, so come combat time we all have plenty of ways to explain HP. I tend to ignore Wizard’s use of terminology more than anything. 😉
I have put my players against monsters that prevent use of healing surges for a turn, that deal damage to healing surges instead, or that toss a disease that could affect healing surges in general.
its added a new level to the game the players enjoy.
.-= Mike´s last blog ..Minion Mondays: Interrupting Cow =-.
@Yan Yeah, I agree 😀 Sometimes the GM really needs to hammer home the idea that the PCs are outclassed before the players finally get it.
Hmmm…. maybe it could form a Skill Challenge based around Insight (the all purpose Get-A-Clue skill!), Nature/Arcana (depending on the type of monster being faced) and Athletics (to actually be able to run away). Succeed the Challenge and they get away and gain the XP. Fail, and they face combat and potentially XP, but a fair few bruises in the process. I like.
@Wyatt Death saves are when your body is finally shouting out at you HEY! A LITTLE ATTENTION HERE! It’s the point where your physical wounds overtake your ability to produce adrenalin and you’re – basically – screwed without medical attention.
Changing the way you think about Healing Surges mean that Clerics make a lot more sense too in 4e – they’re medics who diagnose and identify the worst wounds (ie, spend a Healing Surge). Which makes ’em feel….. well, more clericky.
Oh, and we’ve also got Healing Stirges, which are like leeches which suck your blood but heal you up at the same time! 😀
.-= greywulf´s last blog ..Down and out in old dungeon town =-.
I noticed myself falling into the trap of thinking I was invincible when I played a 4E paladin for the first time. “Oh, I can take it. Our leader will heal me. Or I’ll use my second wind.” 1/4 of max hp disappears pretty quick when you’re the meat shield.
As a DM, I’ve never been one to throw “really powerful” monsters at players because they’ve been steamrolling through encounters just to humble/scare them. I prefer to tweak future encounters by a level or two.
Regarding what HP represents, I was guilty of describing damage as wounds in previous editions. With the advent of Bloodied in 4E, it makes it easier for me to visualize it as just burning stamina, getting tired, feeling the burn. Blood doesn’t start flowing until you fall below that 50% mark.
.-= Kameron´s last blog ..4E Quests for Sunless Citadel =-.
“Healing surges are the new hitpoints” – I suppose I agree with Greywulf. A house rule we use in our game is that when monsters score a critical, in addition to the damage dealt, you loose a healing surge. Players who score criticals immediately drop the monster to bloodied (or lower, depending on how much damage they do) – unless the monster has a HS also – which is rare.
“unless the monster has a HS also – which is rare.” Well the DMG (or was it the MM) said that every monster as healing surge base on their tier. 1st tier =1 HS, 2nd tier = 2HS and 3rd tier = 3HS. This makes it limited but not rare. What is rare is creature that as ability to use it though.
Yan is correct. Not all monsters have a second wind or other such ability, but all of them have at least 1 healing surge. You could change your houserule to allow the bloodied critical, but give all monsters Second Wind so they have some ability to recover from the massive damage, thus maintaining the little balance you had going there.
.-= Wyatt´s last blog ..Wizard’s tells you to roleplay in 4e. =-.
@ChattyDM I consider any HP damage before bloodied status to be nothing but close-calls and scratches. ‘Bloodied’ is the ‘hero wound’ that doesn’t actually impair the character any but lends gravitas to the situation and motivation to reach into reserves of energy. The only real wounds are the sort that actually put a character down, forcing magic or potion or first aid to bring them back up, and even that could often just be a nasty bump to the head. I guess it helps to think in film terms. 😉
Sian makes a good point about film terms. 4e is very cinematic and can easily evoke a “fantasy hollywood movie” feel in its combat (or a fantasy anime or manga feel, at least to me), which is good to keep in mind as a way to explain and rationalize hit points and such if you can’t find any other way. How did you get up? You’re the gritty hero of the movie, and your resolve and courage are yet to be conquered. The drama of the scene demands you get up! Well, maybe not so heavy-handedly, but you get the point, right? In the anime and manga fandom we tend to call that a “resolve/courage/friendship powerup” and it’s viewed somewhat unkindly, but I like it in games.
Thanks everybody for reading and commenting, by the way 🙂
.-= Wyatt´s last blog ..Wizard’s tells you to roleplay in 4e. =-.
Hi all!
I agree that Surges are the new hitpoints, and hitpoints are more like SDC in the Palladium system. I’ve also never used hitpoints as lifepoints – @ChattyDM’s definition is my preferred one as well.
I’ve had a heck of a time since my Return to Northmoor PCs hit Paragon – I can’t seem to challenge them adequately. I ran a level 15 solo, and it didn’t really even phase them – they are hyper efficient on the Fighter->Cleric teamup, and I bloodied the fighter 5 times in one battle to no avail.
I’m concerned because I’m starting to feel antagonistic. 🙂
.-= Tim White´s last blog ..Return to Northmoor Episode 17 – Actual Play of Session 8, Part I =-.
One of the rules I’ve established for PCs early on in the campaign was that I wasn’t going to play “fair” not every fight is going to be at level or reasonable difficulty. The idea of running away to fight later is and should be available to you.
If the party decides to flee I roll on a custom chart for affects of an overwhelming battle. The results vary wildly from escape, to parley, loss of items, or capture.
The players know the chart and know the modifiers if PCs are already fallen or “dead”.
The added benefit of this is that if an unlucky first hit “kills” a PC I can ret-con due to the chart and not tax the PCs the gold for death but will leave -1 until three milestones death penalty around.
@Tim:I have a blog post I’ve been nurturing about just that. As Players discover the secret tech of synergistic team play, the DM is hard pressed to keep up. I’ve long said that you can build a party of PC like a Magic the Gathering deck that is played by a team.
What makes them so efficient is that they ALWAYS have a game plan and contingencies. Stiking to the plan is what makes the encounter easy for them.
The secret of challenging players in fight is to use the Encounter design tools (Traps, Hindering/damaging terrain, Monster roles and XP budgets) to build encounters exactly like you would build your own ‘Deck’. You need to go beyond ‘2 Soldiers, 1 controler, 2 Artillery’ basics of encounter design and find monsters that mesh together.
The Monster abilities were designed to create combos with other powers. Look for them during encounter design.
Then the next step, much like a Magic game, is to break the party’s game plan. Isolate/Immobilize the Rogue, force defenders to go one on One, keep Artillery away from all PCs, drop the Leader to 0 HP early in the fight, etc.
The goal is not to win vs the PCs… the goal is to destabilize them to break their game plans. Now players feel pressed to find a new plan.
To be visited later in a post!
Since I know nothing about these healing surge thingys I have to say I really like you way of working the reward mechanics into escaping. You’ve always had a really keen grasp of how to make things work within the rules that I respect.
.-= Helmsman´s last blog ..Contemporary RPG Settings =-.
Another question is, how do you let the PCs escape from overpowering baddies without sacrificing one of them? A lot of fantasy stories use desperate retreats as a way to kill off a teammate. Even the iconic Balrolg fight required Gandalf to fight it off to let the others get away.
PCs are reluctant to retreat. PCs are really reluctant to retreat if it means leaving one of their own behind. Perhaps if you emphasize smart use of slow/immobilize effects in such an encounter? You could only use 1, maybe 2, “RUN AWAY!” monsters; it would be difficult as hell to simultaneously slow down more than that. You could add more weak monsters that can chase the PCs or slow them down; the PCs would have to kill those off first. That would also take advantage of PCs’ tendency to kill off the weak ones first; all their attacks wouldn’t be devoted solely to realizing “we can’t take this guy” and thus wasted.
Ideas:
-Pair up a tough, low-damage elite they can’t defeat with a weak controller they have to kill to escape.
-A slow-moving bruiser the size of a semi truck works with a ton of fast minions that swarm around the PCs and get in tons of opportunity attacks as they try to retreat. Actions points & area attacks save the day.
-The PCs face off against 4+ equal-level elites along a narrow cliff. The elites don’t have push powers; the PCs do. Expected tactic: push off 2 of them, kill the other two. Bonus points for pushing off all 4 and cutting the encounter short.