…Because I dare not call it “old school.”
I think you could take 4e and remove the powers system for a “rules-lighter” experience. Here’s roughly how it would go:
- Choose class, race, and ability scores normally. Derive defenses as needed.
- Remove all at-will, encounter, daily, and utility powers. You use basic attacks and DMG Pg. 42 to adjucate actions, up to and including spells.
- However, keep all class features, including those that grant powers, and any powers granted by race.
- Your call on skills. The trained/not trained system is easy enough, but at the same time, I think a DM could easily decide on the fly what ability score + half-level for whatever it is the PC is trying to do.
- Feats are tough. Some clearly won’t work without the powers, but others are OK. I’d be fine with just tossing them out entirely, though they are something nice to get as you level up, so I’d say pare down the list to simpler ones like the expertise feats, focus feats, proficencies, skill trainings and others that just rely on modifying the core stats. Alternatively, I could see some of the ones that don’t appear as though they work- like the ones that give a bonus to specific energy damage rolls- actually providing more incentive for signature styles/spells created in-character. (“I use my patented lightning arc! Int. vs Reflex!”)
- Balance is pretty much out the window, especially as far as monsters go, so DMs should tread carefully when throwing a standard encounter at the party by the book. Additionally, if you’re trying to make the game rules lite for the DM as well, you could throw out most (if not all) monster powers too and just use their basic attacks. (This also might be an excellent time to reduce the monster’s HP, and other similar suggestions).
- I’d leave out the +X magic items, or just give out the bonuses automatically at appropriate levels. Other wondrous items and so forth should be fine, though I’d definitely recommend dropping the daily item limit stuff.
I haven’t thought about it indepth enough (or examined every single class) but it feels like it should work as an introduction, or just a break for a one-off (and should make playing without minis and a map easier too).
And yes, before anyone mentions it, this is a lot of the way Star Wars: Saga Edition handles it.
For another idea that takes it back the other way (leaving powers but eliminating the half level bonus to accomodate starting new characters in an existing campaign at first level), check out this ENWorld thread. And as always, if you have suggestions, criticisms, alternatives, or if you actually try playing the darn thing, please let me know in the comments.
I can’t say that I would be interested by such a version of the game but having page 42 here is pure genius.
In fact, I’d add expected attack bonuses for traps and monsters, hit points for monsters and objects and I’d make this a one page Dungeon Master Guide and Monster Manual.
I’ve already decided that I’ll run my son through Labyrinth Lord (or I’ll buy a copy of Basic D&D at Gen Con) before I tackle 4e again. When he’ll clamor for more, I’ll upgrade to 4e.
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or.
You could go to a used book store and buy a bunch of 1e books.
just saying….
I was wondering how long it would take before someone said “use X system instead.” While I’m not sure this game I describe is playable, it would be a different game than 1e no matter what.
There’s also this argument here that AD&D is not “lite”: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/257814-ad-d-not-rules-light.html
@ROY: or.
You could get off my interent with things that TheGame clearly allowed in a preface.
Just saying…
1E spells and the like, and the wonky rules for various classes, races, stats needed, etc. is NOT lite.
4E Lite (D&D 0th Edition?) on the other hands adjudicates spells much more simply than ANY other version of D&D.
Anyone who can tell you that AD&D is rules lite is a liar or crazy. It is rules lite because people tossed out all the rules they didn’t care for. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but that doesn’t make an edition rules lite.
I don’t think I would enjoy this version, but it still makes for an interesting experiment. You comment that this is similar to Star Wars: Saga Edition, which I love. But my favorite part of that game was the force power system, which was really a prototype for the 4e power rules.
I don’t want to be one of those obnoxious people who says to just play a different edition, but I think it is true. If you have to change the underlying philosophy of a system to make it work for you that means you are playing the wrong system. You could probably take a system that is rules lite by design and tweak it to do what you want much easier than gutting 4e.
.-= Nicholas´s last blog ..Put Skills to the Test with These 7 Challenge Scenarios =-.
Interesting idea. If anyone tries it out, I’d be interesting in hearing how it goes. 🙂
BTW 1e includes not only AD&D but also OD&D and Basic D&D – both of which are much more “lite” than the Advanced game.
.-= Stuart´s last blog ..Luck Be a Lady Tonight =-.
I skipped 2e & 3e. Maybe its familiarity, but I find 4e to be more complicated than ad&d was.
Don’t get me wrong we have a barbarian in our party who would be pretty sad to lose his devastating strike, but our rouge would love to play be these rules.
They should interesting and fairly simple, but I would be concerned about magic user being limited to a certain number of spells like back in 3.5. I mean seriously, the second our wizard ran out of spells it was like ok, I’ll be over here in the corner… please don’t hit me.
Very creative though. ^_^
I’m having trouble envisioning Magic mechanics here. Could someone give me an example as to how a player could use this system for traditional controller play? I’m looking for reasonable rules for imposing conditions like immobilized and dazed on groups of enemies.
I don’t have it open, but as far as I know, page 42 doesn’t give much insight as to how to balance AE effects on the fly. For single-target effects, I’d say this is pretty cool.
Great way to play a cleric or warlock, but for Wizards? hm…
You could always just use Castles & Crusades.
dice_girl: Fortunately, this suggestion lets Wizards keep casting spells all day long! (An importance difference in playing 4e Lite and a previous edition)
Ryan: Good question. I’ll have to check what pg 42 says on the matter, but off-the-cuff I think you can just use the low damage expression on anything bigger than a single target.
Jonathan: There’s a lot of games I COULD play, and indeed those are good games that I could recommend, but this is for those who want to keep at least some of the flavor of 4e, or use it as a stepping stone into full 4e. You can see why those would be different, right?
The Game:
I agree on the damage front, I’m more looking for:
1. How big should AE’s be? Should there be a difference between Bursts and the smaller blasts?
2. Any advice for GM’s as to which conditions are appropriate at which levels?
Some ideas: ongoing damage is ok at 5*tier, save ends. status effects last until the end of your next turn, unless you spend an action point to make it save ends. Action points recharge every short rest, and you get 1*tier.
@ Ryan: I think what I’d do is let each character have a sort of magic/technique they excel in. In any given combat situation, you’d let them describe what they’re trying to do. For instance, trying to use Fire in a cold environment would make for small effects perhaps, but it would hurt vulnerable creatures more. On the other hand, really creative spell use would get bonuses.
I agree with TME, you write a little one or two sentence description of what your character can do. “My wizard is proficient in ranged area attacks using fire, cold and force type elements.”
Okay cool beans, you can do Burst 1s at 10 square range. This is really basic stuff, even at-wills can do this. If you roll really well, you can do Burst 2s or up to Range 20. And so on, have it be freeform, use DMG Page 42 for the damages.
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Wyatt:
So, in terms of effects, your hypothetical Wizard could maybe:
Fire: Ongoing 5*tier damage, save ends
Cold: Slow (save ends), perhaps immobilize single targets, or everyone on a crit.
Force: Push WISMOD squares, or knock prone
That sounds like fun, actually. Any suggestions as to good effects for other damage types?
Perhaps:
Radiant: Blinded, daze 1 target or everyone on a crit
Necrotic: weakened (too powerful?)
Acid: same as Fire
Using page 42 as the entire system is a pretty good idea.
I’ve been playing with a 4e Lite system for a bit. I’ve got it on Sly Flourish as sort of a system-in-the-works.
My core criteria for the system was the following:
1. Character creation should take less than 10 minutes.
2. One player should be able to play an entire party.
3. The game should be playable in about an hour with two players.
4. The ruleset should be fully compatible with other 4e stuff (adventures, sourcebooks, etc)
5. The entire materials for the game should fit in a 1 gallon ziploc bag for travel.
The core of my 4e Lite variant is in a few house rules for combat, averaging of damage (or maxing damage if you want things fast and furious), and simplifying character creation by using the NPC creation rules in the DMG. This cuts out items and feats easily.
I haven’t played it much, but I think its a system that could work.
Here’s the ruleset:
http://slyflourish.com/4e-lite/
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I have to agree with many of the comments here, I think this is a very interesting idea for an experiment!
The locus of creativity put on players, particularly a wizard player, and the sheer amount of freedom that is apparent to the player from the start are things which I think are 100% possible in 4E as written (especially in my game) but people feel very limited by the power system. That’s why I think this would be a cool intro or one-off game to do.
Lite Skills:
I’d keep the trained/untrained, but lose the ability mod + 1/2 level bit. I’d use fixed DCs, rather than scaling them with level:
DC 5 – easy for anyone; automatic for trained
DC 10 – moderate; easy for trained
DC 15 – hard; even experts fail regularly
DC 20 – very hard; only experts have a realistic chance
====
I’ve been thinking of using this in 4E, adding 1/2 level + 2 (average ability mod), instead of the DCs on page 42. It’s fairly similar, and I can derive it without having to open the book.
How about simply using the rules from the Minis skirmish game for a lighter 4e experience?
4E DnD Lite? 4E DnD Stoopid? Yes please 😎
From my experience, the RPG geeks/wargamers (me) who like pouring
through rules and powers etc, find 4E’s great.
For RPG ROLE-players, people who don’t like reading rules, but
will roll the occasional dice (if they must) find the power system
a bit of strait jacket..they just want to bellow a lot and then
roll a D20 (the result of which can be pretty much irrelevant too
8-))
I like the proposed Lite magic system…
‘I want to burn it..’
Roll..hit …take 5 Dam and Burning 5pt ongoing (save ends)
‘I want to freeze it..’
Roll..hit..take 5 Dam and Slowed (save ends)
How do we cope with non-combat related spells, charms etc?
“I haven’t thought about it indepth enough”
No kiddin?
But seriously, this is a laudable goal. In fact, I run a very similar sort of game.
(This post is too long. In summary, include improvised Daily Powers (look at Monster Creation rules for how to do this), include feats that affect Powers, make sure you let players use potions, and halve everyone’s HP)
One issue is that in 4e, combat has basically three things at stake:
1) Healing Surges and Hit Points
2) Daily Powers (and, from Round to Round, Encounter powers)
3) Consumable items (Potions, Alchemy bombs etc)
Losing or gaining one of these in combat or as a result of combat is more or less what makes D&D combat exciting. Victory is, fortunately or unfortunately, a foregone conclusion. So, you take out two of these and you’ve just gutted combat. There is an easy fix though.
Daily Powers are just regular powers, but beefed up and one use. A few times per session, depending on your level, you can put in some “extra effort” and really sock it to em. The damage gets kicked up a notch on the p42 damage table, and maybe the effects are permanent instead of temporary. You only have a few uses of this, so character sheets should probably have some boxes you can check off or whatever.
Encounter powers can be scrapped without too much loss, because the expenditure of resources that their use represents is relevant only from round to round.
Potions are the easiest thing in the world to keep track of. Just like the daily powers, you can have little check boxes.
Which brings us to healing surges. I don’t like keeping track of them, and my players have never been able to make any sense out of what they are supposed to represent in combat. However, healing surges force players to rethink strategies (spamming heal on the tank stops working after an encounter or two). Therefore, if I think the party is healing one player too much, the player will (after a few warnings) contract the “Weary” condition, whereby further healing has no effect.
Also, you should probably have the Player’s Handbook (of whatever edition) handy just to give inspiration for actions and attacks.
“Feats are tough. Some clearly won’t work without the powers”
Page 42 gives you, in essence, the ability to improvise powers. So feats shouldn’t be that big of a deal. Say you have a feat which grants +5 damage to powers with the cold keyword. Okay, so if the player wants +5 damage, they have to describe a cold attack. Easy enough. If the player decides to “abuse” this feat, or does the same boring cold attack over and over, simply take out your monsters with cold resist 5.
“Balance is pretty much out the window”
Not necessarily. A finely tuned and tested 4e encounter can still turn into a TPK as a result of horrific die rolls and/or player decisions. I think a DM always has to be on his/her toes about this kind of thing anyway.
Finally, and this is just a personal preference, but I like to halve PC and NPC hitpoints, rounding up. Makes for more exciting combat, because players/monsters are losing bigger percentages of their HP with every hit.
And there you are. Little checkboxes for Dailys and Potions and a “Weary” condition and your simplified D&D combat should work like a charm. Just make sure that no one player hogs the spotlight or gets too munchkiny and you should be fine.
Happy Gaming!
Capt Poco: You mention victory being a foregone conclusion (which if it is, find a new DM) but then you also mention a TPK being very feasible. So which is it? Before you try to call Dave on not giving the idea much thought, perhaps getting your own thoughts straight is a good idea! 🙂
I feel that what your rather long comment expands on takes this away from being a “4e Lite” idea and gives it a bunch of new fiddly rules. Especially this bit:
“Therefore, if I think the party is healing one player too much, the player will (after a few warnings) contract the ‘Weary’ condition, whereby further healing has no effect.”
This rule might work for you specifically as a DM, and with your one group, but having a DM call “no more healing” at his whim is just asking for trouble (and massive conflict between players and the DM). Plus this seems like it is exactly the same rule as healing surges, just less defined and with no real mechanics to it.
I do like your analysis though of what’s at stake mechanically in a 4E encounter, changes some of the ways I look at resource management in the game.
I’m late to the party, but here is my take.
This seems like a great way to get non-gamers or at least non-P&P-rpg-gamers introduced/interested/indoctrinated (choose your poison) to 4e. I could easily envision some of my intelligent friends who are not gamers giving this a shot, whereas full 4e would overwhelm them or put them off.
I have Keep on the Shadowfell, but haven’t given the quickstart rules a serious readthrough. Can anyone who has run/read KotS as a quickstart give an opinion?
@profligate: I ran Keep on the Shadowfell back when it first came out, it is pretty standard D&D before the party gets into the keep so that would probably serve as a decent intro to a new group of players. Although getting from the town to the important points/places might require some DM direction. Once they get into the keep it becomes a lot of combats strung together which some people might find fun but I think it’s a bit too much of a slog. With some version of the “Lite” rules it might be quicker and better.
That’s my opinion on it! Overall I’d say yea it’s a good intro to the game/edition.