Aptly enough, Monte launched his new Megadungeon project, have a look here.
Like lightning, inspiration struck me over the weekend. Last Friday’s musings on Megadungeons has left my brain splattered all over the place with a ton of ideas for adapting the old concept to my current way of playing the game.
I’ve got so much feedback and detected so much enthusiasm around the idea of making a 4e Megadungeon-themed campaign that I’ve decided that my following mini-campaign will be used as a testbed of the idea. If it looks fun and feasible, we’ll see where we can take this baby.
First and foremost, since I’m going to be creating this for my players, I have to take their preference and play styles into account. My group (myself included) is driven by the following key motivators (in decreasing order)
- Kicking Butts
- Accumulating Cool Powers
- Being an influential part of the Story
- Planning tactical foray into hostile areas
- Making things happen
- Psychodrama
- Getting to look and feel Super Cool
- Play favorite roles
- Exploration
But most of all
- Hang out with buddies and not overheat the tired, Friday evening brain
This means that I’ve got a pretty average group but that I’m also blessed to know what my players are after in our games.
Armed with this knowledge, I can now answer some of the questions that were asked in the last post:
Will the Dungeon be fully mapped (like the ones from the seventies) or will it remain mostly abstract like ThunderSpire Labyrinth?
It will not draw a detailed sprawling dungeon map up front. I’ve realized that much like a ‘start with a small town and grow from there’ campaign, a Megadungeon can also be like that. I’ll identify a sprawling underground complex as the focus of the next campaign and I’ll define a ‘homebase’ but I’ll build everything bit by bit, as the campaign progresses.
Heck, Grandad Gygax never finished Castle Greyhawk.
So I guess I’ll borrow the Thunderspire model, but I’ll add a little twist on it.
Huge levels to explore or linked 5-room dungeons?
My players (one in particular) grow weary of spending long sessions through the same dungeon, exploring the same themes and/or pursuing the same goals. Part of this stems from the 18 straight months we spent playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil earlier in this decade.
So what I’m thinking is that I’ll likely go with the 5-encounters dungeons (with added empty rooms to round it out to a 10-15 rooms dungeon). In fact, I expect PCs to leave the area and return to ‘Civilization” between each thematically-linked forays.
For example, they might explore the Kuo-Toa Cisterns Shrine-Tombs then come back to ‘base”. Based on lore found there, they might decide to infiltrate the Minotaur-King’s Outpost to find the lost Skull-key that can close the Tempest Portal to the Elemental Chaos the Kuo-Toa Priests have been opening up on top of Frozenrock Spire in Light-Bane Lake.
After each adventure, I’d keep each dungeon in a campaign binder (virtual or otherwise) and build my Megadungeon like that.
Will it embrace Old School dungeon design lore or player psychology-driven controlled encounters? Are both mutually exclusive?
I’m not even sure what old school means anymore (and I’m not asking for an answer), however if by this I mean following the guidelines presented here, I will definitively be hitting a few of them, at least on occasion when they can be used in a way that my group will enjoy.
As for my pompous sounding “psychologically-driven bla bla”, let’s just say that I’m going to design the campaign for my players first. Whenever I create a section of the dungeon, I’ll pick and chose from their motivations and mine.
Will it be a static exploration environement (keyed rooms), a dynamic dungeon environment or a mix of both?
Since I’m going to settle for a non-sandbox approach (i.e. player choices will influence what I prep in future sessions, but I won’t give players a huge canvas to play in) each area of the dungeon the PCs explore is going to be rather limited in size. I aim to make each area be big enough to have both keyed and unkeyed elements that can interact with the PCs (and possibly, if I can pull it off, each other).
One thing’s for sure, I’m bringing wandering encounters back into my game! Something needs to exist to possibly break those 5 minutes rests once in a while (or, more likely, threathen the PCs when they are foolish enough tospend 8 hours resting in a dynamic dungeon).
Will it have a big bad evil guy, or is the dungeon and its ecology itself the enemy? (From Wyatt)
I’m definitively making the dungeon the enemy, in fact I’m planning to make the dungeon an actual NPC and the main villain in the campaign (or at the very least, make the dungeon be a manifestation of the core villain of the campaign).
So what does that give me?
The foundation of my next campaign will be:
A short D&D 4e campaign focused on a sprawling dungeon environment. Adventures will focus on exploration of discrete areas of the dungeon based on choices made by PCs interacting with NPC factions. The Dungeon will play a role in the campaign based on a variation of the Chaos vs Law trope.
Some will likely ask ‘Where’s the Megadungeon in that?’. The way I see it, it will manifest in three ways. First the campaign will focus around a single sprawling underground complex. There just won’t be all that much of it defined when we start playing in it. Second, if my group and I enjoy this campaign model, we’ll explore more and more dungeons making the whole bigger. Lastly, if this thing really flies, we could open it up (or a variation thereof) as a bigger online collaborative project and make the whole thing truly Mega.
But first, I’ll focus on my gaming group.
My friend Yan and I have already discussed his and we came up with a campaign concept, a backstory and even some campaign elements. I also doodled a little one-page dungeon and it already gave me enough ideas to stage a one evening game in it.
Up next, I’ll start sharing some of this with you.
Very very delicious looking. I think i will need a new tag on Delicious (excuse the pun) as the MegaDungeon fever might lead to some wonderful delights.
So, during the campaign, can the players leave the dungeon?
p.s. best anti-spam word ever. mmmmm, can’t go wrong with fried pork products.
Thanks man.
Yes, the relative nearness of what is outside the dungeon will be another foundation of the campaign. Much like Monte’s Ptolus, the dungeon and the city will have a close relationship.
(And I’d insert jokes about spawns from that relationship but it just sparked an idea I just may well think about seriously).
What is it about mega dungeons that is so inspiring and exciting? I’ve done forays into Ruins of Undermountain and the Temple of Elemental Evil before, but I still can’t figure out why exactly I get all nostalgic about them. Maybe it’s the excitement of entering a new room and having absolutely no idea of what is going to happen there. Or maybe it’s the kick, kill, loot paradigm distilled to its purist and crunchiest form. Who knows?
I’m eager to see what you come up with Chatty…
You might want to poke around either Dragonsfoot or Knights-n-Knaves (I apologize for not remembering which it is) for a thread on “megadungeons as wilderness”. The idea being, you have the vast underground ruin, but only detail specific portions of it, hand-waiving the intervening twisty corridors and such, perhaps punctuating them with random encounters. Seems just like what you’re thinking about doing here. I’ll keep an eye on this; sounds interesting.
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Sounds cool! I think this a really good way to handle the megadungeon concept.
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I am curious and this post is as good a place as any to ponder it. Is there room in modern megadungeon making for the “characters draw the map” paradigm? One thing I remember about my childhood D&D was comparing of maps. Like some people kept old character sheets, I kept old maps and lovingly reviewed dungeons I had completed and yearned to complete map sections where there were obvious gaps.
The comment above about “and-waiving the intervening twisty corridors and such” made me think that something about dungeon delving might be lost today.
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Oh, please don’t get me wrong, HermitDave. I don’t personally advocate such an approach, although I do understand it. To my grognardy mind, those twisty corridors are half the fun (you might want to check out my website if you need proof *grin*). But apparently Chatty’s players don’t share the mindset, alas.
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You guys make writing all this so worth it…
@Greenvesper: I really don’t quite grok what the attraction the concept had on me. Hell, we don’t have the patience as a group to do a large dungeon, myself included, yet I return to the concept time and again. It’s probably as you say. The wonder of exploration, the simplicity of the quest and a whole lot of nostalgia for many.
Finding out the why (or remembering why I stopped) is what I seek with this project.
@Joseph: Hey man, thanks for stopping by! I love what you do with the Castle of the Mad Archmage. I read Melan’s excellent analysis of Dungeon design and non-linear maps. I’ll look into Dungeons as Wilderness tomorrow for sure! Thanks. Always happy to discuss gaming with Grognards (and everyone else).
@Rich: I hope we’ll enjoy it.
@Hermit Dave: As Joseph says, part of my group has no taste for that aspect of gaming. Although I must say that Franky has often proposed to be the map maker so I may very well re-introduce this lost art by making mapping an ongoing minor quest. Heck, I could even plan specific treasure parcels attached to the activity, representing people interested in buying the maps.
After a day at work we don’t want to bother ourselves with some bookkeeping of drawing some map.
Hell just keeping track of our loot is often resolves by “Anyone can use this? Nah lets put that on the stash we’ll divide it latter” Which amounts to when we’ll have enough for some better gear, probably never. 😉
The thread that Joseph mentions is found here
Also, here’s the thread about non-linear dungeon design
That’s Yan’s subtle way of telling me I don’t put enough treasure in my games 🙂
Started writing just before chatty’s post…
Yep franky is the more detail oriented of the group and I’m not surprise he proposed it, just did not remember it. No wonder he’s the stash keeper most of the time… lol!
I like the notion of starting your dungeon/lair/town/world small and expanding it as you need it. As I’m not currently gaming 4e, I’ll definitely be using this idea in my Stargate campaign.
Thanks for another great idea, Chatty
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Looking forward to it.
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I have to say, once again you’ve inspired the DM in me and put a voice to that unnamed feeling/desire I’ve been feeling in the back of my brain. Thanx.
My group too, however, has their lack of patience with the megadungeons that I will have to overcome (this is mostly in part to the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil which took us almost 2 years to complete..). I think your idea on inter-connecting mini-dungeons is the way to go on this though and my group already has the perfect ‘home base’ established.
and before I signoff, here is just a quick descriptor of their base as I think it might be useful to others: A while back the PCs tracked some goblins to the Mines of Pain, to rescue some townsfolk. While the mine complex where the goblins were was not huge, the central part of the caves is a giant void that extends down to unfathomable depths. The goblins had all sorts of scaffolding connecting their caves that branched off the upper end of this void, but the dark depths are still unexplored. The PCs tookover the goblin caves after clearing them out, leading to a perfect starting point for a mega-dungeon (with out even planning it that way).
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Will this next campaign be set in the same world you’re using now?
Also, can’t wait to see how you pull off making the dungeon an “actual NPC.”
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@Vulcan: The start small approach is particularly useful when you want to start a campaign with minimal preparation. As players explore your little patch of campaign world, they can participate (actively or passively) in growing it. I like it a lot.
@Rauthik: Glad I could be inspiring! 🙂 It seems that your current campaign has the perect setup to start some Megadungeon fun! Go at it!
@Ron: I could be set in the same world, however since all of the campaign will likely be held underground, I don’t expect it will be of any significance. Having never had extended under
dark adventures in the last 2 decades, I don’t currently have much world lore I could link the Megadungeon too.
Which makes it fresh for me and my players from a world building perspective.
I didn’t mean to give the impression I thought people on this thread did not want to draw maps. It just reminded me that a lot of modern gamer groups have not actually ever done this. With premade dungeon tiles and maps made for miniatures, that old skool idea of map making is getting lost. Your comment Joseph, just reminded me of that. And I already have you on my permalinks so I drop by regularly 🙂
I don’t want this to devolve into another Old vs New arguement (there are enough of those out there now) but I am finding it surprising how many things I considered the fun part of D&D are not being used anymore. Maps? Oh the joy of the “here there be dragons” (sometimes literally!) blank spots! Treasure lists? Meticulous lists of what you got, what you spent and what was group treasures were some of those old sheets I still have kept around. But that is nostalgia for ya I guess. In my old age I think everyone thought that but I highly doubt it.
That said, at least 10 of my Old Skool maps had those lil lightening bolts showing great distance between one squiggly tunnel attaching to another squiggly tunnel stating, “ohhhh about two miles between this cavern and that one.”
Maybe I should change my name to Off Topic Dave.
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http://chattydm.net/2009/03/10/chattys-megadungeon-foundations/#comment-15728
@Chatty: You got a good point there.
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Ooh. I have GM-ed many a large dungeon, you could say I am somwhat of a dungeon-fanatic. I’ve played completely mapped-out ones, and those where there was absolutely no map, and the dungeon developed at the speed of plot and coolness.
My most recent dabblings in the megadungeon involve a system quite like the one (exactly the same) used by Shamus Young (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1145), which I borrowed (stole).
This one works like working out the ‘encounter spots’ and giving less attention to hallways, burrows, chimneys, and the like, rather focussing on which spot can be reached from the other. Each location is going to be rather large, the dungeon (or at least top level of it) being a series of natural/hewn caves. From there on, we go down several levels, which are mapped out completely and three-dimensional (there are trap doors in the ceiling or floor, leading up/down) as well as stairways leading to balcanies and overhanging floors. Finally, there an improv psych dungeon, where only a general concept of foes/treasure/ultimate goal is created, while the dungeon itself alters shape to mess with the players with all freakish things my mind can come up with. If the players aren’t ‘feeling it’, I’ll offer them an easy exit to the next level, which is still to be drawn up…
This hybrid thing of a megadungeon should provide for entertainment for all, and leave me with easy escapes if the concept doesn’t appeal the players, although I am quite sure that it will. It should be limited in outside access, and I intend on giving the dungeon a nice ‘Moria-like thing coming out of the water/air/ground/internets to destroy and collapse the doorway’. I am in doubt whether or not to offer a ‘friendly’ base of operations with some underground dwellers where the PC’s may perform research, barter for new goods, and rest. I find it hard to implement such a location, ecology-wise, since the dungeon should be the forbidden and not entered in centuries. Kinda lame to have a pack of half-witted gnomes running through it, or a dark elf emo club for that matter…
Such a rant, I forgot to say: Very curious about your dungeon, know that I will be checking frequently for inspiration 😉
Two quick things:
First, I’m running a PbP game over at Plothook that is running through the encounters in the Dungeon Delve book, and will be using a similar setup for it. It is low on the background story, but as we run through all the encounters, that may change.
Second, Monte Cook just announced (or sent emails, anyway) about his Dungeon-a-Day project at Dungeonaday.com
Its “a subscription-based website that offers new content every weekday. Essentially, I’ll be building a dungeon-based campaign one encounter a day. It also includes all the background information you need, behind the scenes blogs that talk about the ins and outs of game design, forums where members can interact not only with each other but with me directly to ask questions and provide feedback. The campaign, as it grows, will be shaped in part based on the feedback from the members. There’s even a podcast!”
Of course, its still in 3.x d20, since he isn’t switching, but the idea was similar enough that I thought it would be worth mentioning.
I’m glad I’m not the only one dreaming about a 4th Edition Old-School Megadungeon (as bizarre as it sounds) 🙂
I’ve been following GROGNARDIA, Greyhawk Grognard, and The Society of Torch, Pole, and Rope for quite a while, and the megadungeon bug has bitten me 🙂 I’m also eager to begin a 4th Edition campaign for the second semester (I’m running Iron Heroes now). So I wondered, how about mixing both?
I’ll be following Chatty’s work closely now. Good luck!
@HermitDave: Many of the ‘fun’ things of old school gaming are not fun anymore for certain type of gamers. I don’t want to go into edition wars, but from 1974 onwards, many new things gaming styles were explored in RPGs.
I for one have no illusion that my group would like mapping, have a high PC death rate or play out the intricacies of food/water/gear purchasing.
We moved on to other aspects of RPGs. Not better or worse, just different.
@Flying Dutchman: Very interesting campaign model. I’ll check Shamus’ game logs a little bit more.
@Dean: I’m well aware of Monte’s new project, that’s partly what fired my new passion for Megadungeon. I hope it works!
@Jumpa: Mixing Iron Heroes and 4e is mechanically simple. You just re-fluff all classes and stop calling anything Magic and you’re good to go. (Heck, it was designed by the same guy!)
Tell me how it goes if you ever start doing it.
For now it’s just a ruined city in the middle of the desert, pretty similar to Dwellers of the Forbidden City but with a dungeon underneath. I thought about using Fallcrest as the safe town and Egypt as a backdrop setting. The surface has a couple of zones and various entrances to the dungeons.
Maybe I’ll start (yet-another) blog for this purpose, after all 🙂