I get ideas sometimes.
Ideas that, if I don’t use them, will leave me for another, younger, more prolific writer. Being a slave to nubile, half-dressed ideas, I take them and put them on electronic paper.
One such idea struck me while reading UncleBear’s latest post about using Hero Points in Hollow Earth Expedition (through our nifty new RPGblogger network! Sorry couldn’t resist the easy plug).
(The game) also uses a Hero Point system, called Style Points. (…snip…). You spend them to roll extra dice, or for a player-initiated deus ex machina. I did that a lot, and it made the game so much more fun than just declaring tactical actions and rolling dice. For instance, when a troop transport truck full of Nazi pulled up, (my Character) took a bead on one of them with his rifle… smiled… then shifted his aim to the fuel depot right behind them. Yeah, I spent a point to have a fuel depot there. BOOM!
So here’s the thing. D&D 4e has action points. You start with one each day and you get another one every two encounters to kinda make up for used resources during your long adventuring day.
According to the Rules as Written (RAW), action points can be used only to get an additional Action (Stardard, Move or Minor) during your turn. This allows you to do all kinds of broken things alone, or combined with your team mates.
Now why not let action points, combined with the use of powers and some player/DM narrative juice, become so much more?
For instance, a rogue is fighting against a Minotaur that has its back against a wall where the DM described some glowing arcane rune,. The rogue shoots the monster with it’s crossbow and misses.
Thinking really fast the player asks the DM if he can use his action point along with one of his encounter powers that deal damage and slides a target. He says he wants to simulate the effect of his X-bow bolt hitting the arcane rune and making it explode violently in a torrent of arcane energies, possibly hitting the Minotaur and pushing it right between the 2 defenders.
This is pure Rule of Cool, I’d totally go for this (Or shooting a crack in the ceiling making rocks fall and pushing the Minotaur). The player came up with a brilliant idea and is willing to spend resources to do so. So what if the power used does not exactly that you can do that?
In fact, as long as an action point is spent, I’d totally allow slight bendings of rules (and some generous bonuses to d20 rolls) to awesome up the scene.
Heck, should we allow it without spending an action point? I think that cinematic groups should!
Based on what I heard Mike Mearls say when Dave interviewed him, I’m sure the game was designed to allow playing with powers like that (as well as the fluff behind them).
So I’m totally going to try that and tell you how it goes… Of course, knowing my players, they’ll be so focused on learning the RAW that they’ll probably never invoke that… except Yan!
I’ll let you know. I can’t wait to start playing.
Anybody would like to expand on this? Does it make sense? Let me know!
Taking notes…
Ok moving on… 😉
Great post!
My brother in-law has started allowing the spending of action points to recharge an encounter power (as a standard action). So you can spend the point, use your standard, then the next turn you could use it again.
This post reminds me that he and I are not the only ones trying to think creatively about how to use action points. They have such creative potential. I’d love to see more ideas about how to “break the rules” in this fashion.
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Oh absolutely use Action Points to coolify the game. That’s why they’re called ACTION Points, after all.
Here’s another one, straight from Mutants & Masterminds: If the GM uses Fiat at any time, the player gains another Action Point to redress the karmic balance.
For example, if that last shot from the Rogue would have killed the BBEG, but you want him to live another day, say that the impact knocks him out the window and give the Rogue an AP. The BBEG’s body is mysteriously never found……..
If you want to know how to use Action Points in D&D, you’ve got to really, really, REALLY read Mutants & Masterminds. It’s all about the action and enforcing the genre. Whatever the genre happens to be 🙂
I disagree with you, actually…
Pure Rule of Cool says that the players don’t NEED to spend an Action Point. That’s along with the “Just say Yes” philosophy of the DMG. If it sounds cool, is unique (i.e. the player isn’t just trying the same thing in every combat), I wouldn’t even require the action point expenditure.
One thing that I’m finding that I don’t like about 4e for AP is that they’re limited, there’s obvious times to use them, and they just allow another attack (so they can’t be used to ensure that the Daily power hits.) I’m thinking about a parallel mechanic that work like d20 Modern AP worked, but players earn them for things other than milestones.
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@Dave: Hence my
Comment.
Thing is, you don’t necessarily want to allow creative players to have access to all powers for no additional costs. It depends on your group’s style.
For instance, to build on my initial idea, the Action Point is enough of a resource usage that I’d let a player imitate a power he does not have (pending he does not use up valuable table time looking things up) in exchange for an AP.
You can’t expect me to read every single sentence you write, can you? 🙂
Emulating a feat/power was on the list of what APs could do in Unearthed Arcana, so it’s reasonable to bring it back to what it was.
I still would rely more on the “DM’s best friend” than using a specific power, but maybe that’s more on my group where I have to adjudicate most of the rules.
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But then again, technically, using rule 42 (i.e. DM’s best friend) is allowable without spending any resources… pending DM approves of stunt.
I just feel that using an AP should, possibly give a significant boost to the stunt.
To be pondered.
I thought you were on blogging vacation. 😉
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I carefully phrased that I’d stop writing long/planned posts…
🙂
I really like this kind of thing as gritty realism never appealed to me, in reality or a game.
Anything which allows for creative game play is allowable by me.
If someone needs a few props that I as DM havn’t thought of then id allow it. If they are asking for the “fuel depot” then an action point is a reasonable trade. The fuel depot being an example of “Boom they are Dead”.
If it was more of a fluff thing or less likely to TMK (total monster kill) then I might not need an AP in trade. I mean as a DM those monster represent my face in the game as much as a PC represents a player.
I am a cinematic kind of player. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!
“Long” is subjective, dear. 😉
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Yes! This is great idea – but personally, I find that the 1 action point limit RAW is annoying. I loved that about d20 Modern where Action Points were accumulated and encourage to be spent on especially cinematic scenes. Heck, you could even use action points in a “non-combat encounter” creatively. Imagine: The characters have been captured by a group of ransoming thugs. While tied up in the hide out, one of the thugs comes to check on them to make sure they have not escaped. (You use an action point) The thug says “Vargas? That you? OMFG! It’s me your long-lost cousin Rufus! Shhh, let me untie your bonds” or some such… Anyway, this thread has got me thinking again… hmmmm
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I’m with Dave on this.
Without action point: 3d8 damage, slide 3 squares.
With action point: 3d8 damage, slide 3 squares.
Where’s the benefit? All they get is to describe their action, which they should get to do anyways.
If a player is going to spend a mechanical resource, they should see a mechanical benefit. Perhaps a +2 to the attack roll when trying a stunt, or an extra square of forced movement.
But something. It should, as you said, give a boost to the stunt. It shouldn’t be required to allow the stunt in the first place.
I haven’t actually run much 4e yet (I’ve mostly been playing, which is unusual), but I’ve allowed action points to confer narrative control.
You can use it for a free action, if you want to. Or you can use it to alter the environment in some way.
There are two main limitations. The first is that the change can’t directly hurt a creature. You can make the ceiling collapse, but you can’t make the orc standing under it die instantly.
The second is that the change has to be reasonable within the setting. You can make a dungeon ceiling collapse. You probably can’t make a meteor fall on someone out of the blue (although maybe if there’s a meteor shower going on…)
The minor limitation is that it doesn’t guarantee die rolls. You can’t make a power automatically hit, or an enemy automatically miss, or a skill check automatically succeed. You might get a bonus, though. GM’s discretion.
Seems to work pretty well.
This reminds me a lot of the dramatic editing/Inspiration mechanic from Adventure! (which, as far as I can tell, is in the same spirit as Hollow Earth Expedition).
For my own part, I’ve been bouncing some ideas around in my head; I was going to turn this into a post, even, but you beat me to it. 🙂
My biggest gripe is that sometimes people will come up with really cool ways to use their encounter or daily powers, and then they miss. It’s kind of a big letdown!
I worry a little bit about the balance of extending this to any roll, but at the same time, I think it’d be interesting to use action points to offer the player some amount of narrative control or insurance. Perhaps it should be like what Ninetail suggests above, with a substantial bonus (+5 to +10, depending on how awesome it would be).
For me, I think dramatic editing is a little far afield for my style, but that might just be because I associate this concept much more intimately with pulp along the lines of the Mummy or the Rocketeer, for some modern examples.
I will have to think more on this!
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I like the idea of being able to do more with action dice, especially with regard to narrative control.
One of the things that disappointed me about 4E is how stingy and simplistic action dice were. After playing games like Mutants & Masterminds, Spycraft and Serenity/Battlestar Galactica (Cortex) and enjoying how much more dynamic they made the game, I was really hoping for more from D&D 4E.
As is, they work alright, but they don’t feel intrinsic to the system the way that action dice do in Spycraft and Cortex.
The fact that we can entertain using AP (or not!) for doing so much more without endangering the game’s ‘inner balance’ shows that 4e has a lot of room to grow as a game engine.
@Graham: I think he specific in the example that the Rogue had missed, so the AP was him taking another action and electing to use his slide power… so it wasn’t /just/ stunting with the power…
However, in general I’ve always been lenient, and preferred my players to do cool things so I tend to encourage that when possible. I do wish that APs (and were I running, they probably would) give some sort of bonus to rolls. Or allow rerolling a failed roll, so that you get another shot at the special power working.
@justaguy –
Sure, but in that case, the Rogue is getting the same benefit they would normally get from using his action point: the ability to use the power in the first place. The action point isn’t allowing anything special.
BTW: Spending an AP to reroll a failed roll is a common one, but IMO detracts from the uniqueness of the Fighter’s “Reliable” powers.
As for a straight bonus to rolls, I’m kinda glad they removed that. Systems like d20 Modern, where an AP adds 1d6 to a roll, frequently become a numbers game on normal rolls (“Crap, a 15! I need 16! Action Point!”) instead of using them to try normally impossible things, which was the point. In place of that, I personally often give bonuses on stunts with or without APs, if they’re creative enough.
This sounds like a GREAT way to adapt Hollow Earth Expedition’s Style Points to 4e. The only thing I’d add is a context in which the DM could award a player with a Style Point for doing something utterly cool and in line with the character concept. I’m not familiar enough with 4e to speculate what that could be; doing something that reinforces class or alignment, maybe.
Some examples of boosts would be to somehow switch a power’s damage type, to make a single target attack into an area attack (albeit using rule 42’s lower damage column).
In fact I currently see it as a restrained way of breaking the rules for people who just aren’t as imaginative as those Rule of Cool windmills players.
As I read the comments, maybe action points could be left as is in their boring role and a DM could assign style points.
And I don’t want to mix stunts with alternative/creative use for powers. I originally saw the spending an action point as trading a resources to obtain an advantage that is approx. equivalent in effect to an extra action.
I like the overall idea of an action point being more than a point you spend to get an extra action (though I’ve now run one session and had the wizard use his action point for an extra move action to move his Stinking Cloud those extra 6 squares, so it’s not limited to just attacks).
I don’t think there should be any extra benefit (like a +2 to attack rolls or some such) provided to using an action point, unless the player has a feat or ability which specifies that they can. I think it would throw the balance off a bit as there are feats and class abilities which make specific use of what happens when a point is used.
It’s also worth noting that there are danger in adding extra features. For example, someone suggested using them to regain an encounter power. Well, that reduces the value of the Wizard of the Spiral Tower, which specifically adds this ability. There are other examples… Look over the paragon paths. The paragon paths specifically add options to the action points, and if you start making those default options then you weaken the paragon paths.
I think that where the APs could be most useful would be allowing players to do things that aren’t normally part of RAW. Perhaps allowing access to a power they don’t normally have (but is still on their class list), or adding an effect to an existing power (a la ‘called shots’), such as allowing a player to ‘target the eyes’ to blind, or ‘cut a hamstring’ to ‘slow’ an opponent.
Perhaps that would best handled via a different mechanic… I haven’t seen enough 4e combats to say whether difficult encounters would be too dependent on the players having APs in order for them to survive…
I’m running a one-shot superhero RPG in a few weeks and I’m adding an Action Point-type system to the game. But now I totally want to steal the idea of allowing them to enhance the coolness of a scene. I really like Ninetail’s idea of giving the players an opportunity to change the scene through their narration, with appropriate bonuses.
@Graham: I have this odd sensation of quibbling over something that we don’t really disagree about fundamentally… so moving on to your next point to quibble over…
I tend to not care about the uniqueness factor, I tihnk, because I tend to feel that most powers should be like that. 😛 I understand that on some level it’s about resources, and deciding when to pull out the tricks. But it still bothers me. I dislike the feeling of “I pull out the big gun! *sound effects of the Millennium Falcon’s drive failing* DAMN IT!”. So I feel spending an AP to get a chance to counter that is fair enough. APs are still “Rare” enough in play (as far as I’ve seen at least) that you won’t be doing that with every power or every time one fails.
And… I’m slightly confused. You say earlier you think a mechanical expenditure should net a mechanical bonus, but then later say you don’t like them giving a straight bonus to rolls… if not giving a bonus to the roll, what sort of mechanical bonus would you like to see?
That’s almost exactly what I do with bennies in Savage Worlds. I don’t remember where I got the term, but I call it Plot Bending. Which reminds me: I need to make a list of “alternate uses for bennies” for my players.
Of course, no one has used it yet, but we’ll see. Several bennies were spent last night on the basic re-roll and that was just against zombies. I can’t wait until they run into… but, no. >;)
@justaguy –
I actually think Felonius has one of the better ideas, actually. Spend an AP, add a condition to the power.
Note, as well, that I’m not against giving a bonus when they use an AP to try a stunt. I just don’t like it being a bonus to a power flat out.
It’s the difference between “I use Power X and spend an AP for +2” and “I try a cool stunt, and spend an AP for +2”. It’s a fine line, but it’s a cinematic line. It makes players more willing to try new and cool stunts.
@ChattyDM: I agree — there’s a lot of potential with action points. In fact, what I’d love to see for 4th edition (and sooner rather than later) is an Unearthed Arcana volume with a bunch of optional/variant rules.
@Felonius: You raise a good point regarding how action points transform at higher levels thanks to paragon pathes. I suspect most of us are playing 4E at the heroic, rather than paragon level, and thus haven’t had a chance to see how some of those extra action point options come into play. It’s one of the reason why I want to conclude my 4E playtests with paragon and epic one shot games, just to see how those levels play out.
Overall, I like the idea of doubling the number of action points, and then allowing them to be spent either for their standard use, or as a story edit. I might try that hack in my next game and see how it goes.
Yep, pretty much every game I’ve played or GMed over the last few years has ported in some sort of narrative point mechanic. Lately we’ve been throwing around an idea to turn “bennies” (to use the Savage Worlds nomenclature) into a free-flowing resource that’s shared by the GM and players during the game.
Each players starts the session with 3 bennies. At any time during the game, a player can spend a bennie to force the GM to add another layer of narrative detail to an encounter. So if the players are chasing a band of raiders through a jungle, the thief can spend a bennie to make sure that there’s an assortment of thick vines for him to climb, thereby allowing his thief to get the drop on the raiders.
The same holds true for the GM…s/he can “spend” a bennie (effectively giving it to one of the players) to require that player to further describe a particular action or response. So if a player is trying to fast-talk the Nazi guards outside a barracks, the GM can burn a bennie to make sure the player has to craft a really complex, layered fabrication that might backfire at some point later in the campaign.
This turns bennies into a free-flowing game currency, a pool of narrative resources that’s constantly moving from players to GM back to players. The point of bennies isn’t to hold onto them; it’s to keep them moving to enrich the game.
I think I’ll expand on this a little more over on my blog…
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I’m submitting this to OPEN GAME TABLE for consideration because, its awesome! As I go through my google reader “starred” list – this post is one of them (along with A Butterfly Dreaming’s post on the same topic).
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You have my blessings Johnathan.
Thanks!
There’s been some concern over at the RPG Bloggers google group that the author’s work is being submitted without their consent – so I just want to clarify: Nothing will be published in Open Game Table unless the author releases the material for inclusion in the Anthology. This post was simply submitted for consideration; which is the first step towards identifying the best in RPG blogging. Let me know if you have any questions over at the The Core Mechanic or in the OPEN GAME TABLE google group. I hope that this clears up any confusion you may have.
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