Somewhere between September and October of 2007, I wrote a series about comparing a RPG gaming group to a workplace project team.
The analogy was rather solid and I got a lot of good feedback on it.
Since then, I was pointed toward Kyle Aaron’s similar work over here.
There, he pointed out a key difference between the a project work team and a RPG group: The project group usually breaks off after the project is done. A RPG group, on the other hand, can continue for a long time if they are playing an open-ended and/or long term campaign.
That’s why he tackled another stage that’s specific to a RPG campaign.
Since I feel our group is currently going through that stage (at least partly), I decided to tackle this as a bonus post on the 4 (now 5) stages of a RPG group performance.
- Your players show up late, cancel at the last minute or actually fail to show up without prior warning.
- The player go through the motion of chucking dice, eating chips and play the game mostly on a mechanic level.
- The game starts late and ends early and is sometimes canceled so the group can partake in another social activity (Movie, video games, etc)
- While not punctuated by inter-personal conflicts the game tends to feel stale and full of ‘Been there, done that’
- Metagaming may be rampant (“I bet he placed a Umber Hulk riding a Bullette there’)
- The GM’s enthusiasm for his game wanes and preparation becomes harder.
Those are what I would consider signs of
Stagnation
After a time, some game groups lose direction. Management theory doesn’t discuss a “stagnation” stage because work or study groups are brought together for a particular purpose, and once that goal is achieved they break up. In game groups, the purpose is usually less concrete. Rather than “design a new space capsule for orbital work,” or “make 400 pizza bases,” it’s “let’s have fun.” It’s very difficult to get somewhere unless you know exactly where you’re going and what route you’ll take. So the vagueness of the goals of roleplaying groups can lead to Stagnation.
A group is Stagnating when people aren’t interested anymore. A player comes in, lies down on the couch and says, “wake me when it’s time to roll for combat.” Another player reads a comic. Yet another simply doesn’t show up often, or “forgets” where the session was going to be this week.
Most game groups will fizzle out at this point. A work or study group rarely stagnates because there’s a boss or teacher outside it who keeps it focused on its goals, and achieving those goals is compulsory. But a roleplaying group is a voluntary social activity, and attempts by someone (say the GM) to impose goals on it will usually result in only bad things for the group, and can actually hasten Stagnation, since one kind of Stagnation is for everyone to leave everything up to the GM.
At this point of a group’s development, people are used to playing together, they know the rules in and out and are harder to surprise or engage.
Inter-personal conflicts are few and far between. Inside jokes abound and focus on the game is harder to maintain. The DM is often working on automatic (from prep to game execution) and the players follow suit.
While everyone enjoys playing together, the emotional sparks and energy that was present in all previous stages is waning. Once again, the ratio of good to ‘meh’ games decreases.
I know many long term gaming groups go through this stage. Much like prolonged Storming groups, it almost invariably leads to the crashing of the campaign. The only difference, is that a Stagnating group will be more likely to accept starting a new campaign/game with the same group than for a perpetually storming one.
There are many issues that may bring stagnation :
- No more thrills of the exploration of a game’s rules and setting
- A campaign’s lack of focus
- Insufficient (or absent) character development
- Inertia caused by players not getting out of their zones of comfort anymore
- Lack of enthusiasm (mostly by the DM, but from players also) and/or DM burnout
- And many more
In our group, after having played a very successful 2 1/2 year long D&D campaign, we played 2 successive campaigns that have grown somewhat stale during the first season of each.
The Solution: Storm again!
Kyle suggests that the key to break stagnation is to send the group into Storming again. To change something that will alter the group’s dynamics or sense of purpose.
Basically, I think he suggests to force the group out of its torpor-inducing comfort zone.
This can be done by:
- Adding new players to an existing campaign
- Change Rules and/or Setting
- Starting a new campaign
- Giving the role of DM to another player
These are all good ideas that can give a stagnating group a jolt that sends it back to Storming. In theory, a group that’s used to working together will then swiftly adjust by transitioning to Norming and moving on to Performing.
The ‘Group Fatigue’ factor
However, based on our own experiences, I feel there’s a few additional issues that Kyle didn’t touch.
A gaming group accumulates a certain level of fatigue as the ‘seasons’ of an open ended campaign progresses that contributes to stagnation. It’s possible that nudging the group back into Storming when the group’s energy is low may not result in the expected results.
For example, we tried starting a parallel game before X-mas and the storming was stronger than expected. However, I feel the group didn’t have the energy to properly steer itself into productive Norming and we more or less abandoned the game after 2 sessions (We’re going to pick it up next month, don’t miss my Player diary!)
Also, a group that is ‘tired’ but also very well adjusted, may actually breeze through the storming stage and jump right back into Stagnation again if the change brought isn’t strong enough.
This is currently happening in our group. We added a new player, (the brother of one of the players) who adjusted really quickly and we basically returned to a stagnating stage after 3 games.
Please note that a stagnating game doesn’t mean bad or dull. It just lacks the energy and vitality of a game done during a group’s Performing stage.
Take a Break
In such cases, I propose that the group end it’s current campaign and takes a breather from RPGs for a couple of weeks, maybe even a few months. This allows the DM to recharge his/her creative batteries and explore different games (or new editions), setting and tropes.
Players also get a break and may, if they wish, drift away from the social group to do other stuff and return later, fresh and ready to tackle a new adventure.
Another approach is to make campaigns less open-ended and/or program them to last for shorter periods of time. At the end of a mini-campaign, you could skip a session and plan a new one, possibly with the same characters for those that are motivated by continuity.
That’s why I’m looking forward to our annual summer break that also coincide with the release of a new edition of my favorite RPG. I’ll be readying and playtesting with a subset of our current group over the summer and come fall, fresh off Gen Con, I’ll be ready for a new campaign.
Plus, we recently created a new social group that meets on a monthly basis and there I’ll get to play a character and leave all the nasty DMing stuff to someone else.
Have you ever lived that stage in your group and how did you handle it?
Generally I tend to keep a definite end to games I run. Trying to make things more episodic or seasonal than open-ended and long. It gives us, and me, as I’m the one that is always asked to GM, a chance to refresh. Often we pick back up in the lives of the characters at a later point, or move on to a different game system or style. I can definitely see my core group stagnating if we didn’t take breaks or change up our style.
I’m seriously thinking of proposing short campaign arcs (4-5 sessions) based around Published Adventure and then offer players the choice of keeping of switching characters.
By putting a long time between stories, we could break the mold of ‘Hero to god in 6 weeks’ model that our campaigns have been like in the last few years.
We’d lose in long term Story depth, but we’d gain from shorter term goals and we could break between mini campaigns.
Great article! My group has noticed a downturn in energy right now, as well. Ours is not so much gaming burnout, but instead our personal lives have flared up (new children, new jobs, school commitments) and not all of us can get together for our scheduled sessions. The lack of gaming then brings on a similar Stagnation feeling, as the excitement of the game cools because you are not playing it.
A number of us are talking right now about what we can do to keep gaming when sessions are getting canceled. The solution we have come up with are Backup games. Games that can be set to run in under a day, that are new, and fun to play. They will not be tight campaigns, but rather set up to run in a session, with whomever is available.
In this way, those that can make it can still game, even if we cannot advance our main campaigns. Plus it gives us a chance to run some other games, that we normally cannot run, because we are GMing other games.
The other thing that our group use to do, but not so much any more, was that on the 4th of July we would all get together to watch fireworks at the park, and before the sun went down, we would have our State Of Gaming talk. At this talk we would discuss the status of any running games, and decide if the game had enough to it to continue or if we should end the game. Players would discuss issues that had come up in various games, and the group would discuss solutions. Also, GM’s would pitch ideas for new games to the group, to see who was interested. The talks were very productive and kept all of our games fresh.
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@ DNAPhil: You’re approach to deal with your group’s slowdown is perfect. Start by realizing what’s happening and as a group come up with workable solutions.
“We’d lose in long term Story depth” yeah, you are definitely right on that. This has never affected me as much because I run with a less world scale story in mind. I tend to think that this is the exception, as opposed to the norm, in “standard” gaming groups style. If we come back with the same characters a few in-game years later,allowing any retcon to represent the time that has passed, we often get the feel of returning heroes.
Chatty is going to PLAY!!!! Holy cow, is it going to create burning hail? 😉
Stagnation is usually handled by giving the DM a break. If your group meets often, then maybe a bad movie or a board game can give a break to a group that doesn’t want to change DM’s, but seriously, it does help to have at least two dungeon masters . . . though I guess with the Internet being around now, places like this help a lot. It gives us a place to bounce idea’s off of each other, back when we first started playing, this just wasn’t possible.
Players get tired of playing too, this is their que to pick up the DMG and start creating. A new DM can really breath fresh air into a group as he’ll run things differently then what everyone is use to. It also gives the DM a chance to explore a character for more then 5 minutes. I love the really hard ones! The crappier the STATS the better! A hero that is constantly struggling is, in my opinion, much more fun to play then some super powered hard ass. I think that that was always what I liked about Indiana Jones, I read a lot of pulp fiction from back in the day, and though Indy is based on these hardboiled heroes, he’s just not up to par with them, and it is his struggle against this that makes him truly a more entertaining and heroic character.
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Careful Rip, I’m actually going to play a Demon in a Monte Cook’s World of Darkness game… and you’ll get to read all about it!
Our group is not so much about players who don’t want to DM. Half of the group has DM experience…
it’s mostly about a DM who doesn’t want to Play… cuz he’s so bad at it… and can’t stand not knowing what’s coming up ahead. After 25 years, DMing gets ingrained hard in a guy.
I’m NOT a control freak ok?!?
🙂
Actually, Rip, I’d argue about that Indiana Jones statement. While Indy was never superhuman, he was always competent. Everything he faced was challenging, and he fought against impossible odds (in the grand scheme of things), but individual tasks, while challenging, rarely left him struggling and were always ultimately doable.
That’s who I want to play. I don’t want a superhuman character, who isn’t challenged by anything, but I want a competent hero. I want to be challenged, but when everything is a struggle, it’s no longer fun.
Oh, I’m not saying that Indy isn’t competent. Nor are low stat characters incompetent. Indy is the perfect analogy, because too many players like to play pulp hero characters too. I’m not saying that it’s bad and I’m not knocking anybody!
Pulp heroes are manly men’s men that live on a diet of raw testosterone. It’s almost like Indy reads these and tries to emulate it, but he just has too big of a heart. Sure, he’ll say stuff like, “It’s not my problem, doll! I’m not running a charity foundation here.” but in the long run, he will cave in and do the right thing every time. His bravery is what really sets him appart from the pulp heroes that he tries to emulate, but cause pulp heroes really aren’t all that heroic.
Take the scene in “Temple of Doom” where he drinks the poison. A pulp hero would drink it and make some cool comment about how when you drink as much as he does, a little blowfish ain’t nothing but flavoring. He’d be immune to it because he’s a manly man’s man.
PULP IS FUN TO READ!!! And it’s fun to play a total badass, but it’s fun to play a competent adventurer who keeps going, not because it is easy for him, but because deep down he is a decent person.
I’ve never died because of low stats before. True I never became a GOD, but I really don’t play to be all powerful. I’m pretty sure that if a DM killed me because I failed a STAT check, that I would hold a grudge and get upset, but that is with any death that you don’t feel that it was anything that you did, but that is another subject all together.
Ripper X’s last blog post..Prep & Play Journal: Weathermay Estate part 1
One thing to consider, Rip, is thst while in 2e your ability scores don’t mean much, in 3e every ability score is meaningful in some way and modifies your attributes.
When I say Indy is competent, I mean he’s above average. When the average stat for a human is 10, you say low stats, and I think 6-8. I say competent, and I think 10-12 for most ability scores, 14 for the best ability. Above average.
If you have a 6 Con in 3.x, you have 2 less hp per level, and a -2 on Fortitude saves (against poison, for instance). In 3e, since every stat modifies something, you definitely can die from having low stats.
-Graham|ve4grm-
In Ripper’s idiom though, Indy is a fairly low power character.Sure, he’s above human average in most of his stats, but when you compare him to his Pulp predecessors, he’s a pretty small fish. As much as he is an action hero, he still makes it through on knowledge and gumption a lot of the time. I’d say that he is a 6th level expert vs Doc. Savage’s 18th level Fighter/Rogue/Monk or the Shadow’s 13th level rogue.
Actually, I’d give Indy 4 levels of expert and 2 levels of rogue.
Might I suggest that we move this off topic subject over to the forum?
🙂
My group is currently in a stagnation phase and has been for about a year. I had the unfortunate experience of one of my key players (and a very, very good friend) dying in the middle of a campaign. We soldiered on, but without him the game hasn’t been the same since. I switched to a new campaign with nearly all new characters (due to an unfortunate Total Party Kill) and while the new material was exciting and the fights were fun, the old spark was nearly gone from the group and still seems to be.
I don’t have strong role-players in my crew, and we’re down to four people including me, the DM. I’ve had strong role-players in the past and the rest of the group tends to jump right in, but without that one girl or guy (I sometimes refer to them as Mr/Ms Personality) the only one playing a role is me as the various NPCs and baddies. Without that additional flare and particiaption from the players, the game loses a lot of its joy.
I’ve been wanting to recruit a new player for quite some time, but finding such a person is a real chore. I’ll game with nearly anyone, but for the other players it’s important that the new person be someone they can get along with and be friends with outside the game. I understand this and respect their wishes. However, that kind of player takes time to find. I’ve been trying to get into a local RPGA-focused group or a convention to find candidates, but with the RPGA essentially folding and 4th edition coming soon it’s really tough!
I’ve been doing research for a new campaign using Arcana Evolved (we’ve been straight-up 3.5 players since forever, with lots of AD&D and 2nd Ed experience) and I’m really excited to debut this new material and world since it very unlike anything we’ve done before, but when I think about my gaming group in its present state I start to lose enthusiasm. I’m probably still mourning the loss of my friend, even though it’s been a little over a year since he died.
Right now, we’re taking a break. It’s been about 2 months since we last played and that’s given me time to focus on other things and really dig into Arcana Evolved.
I’m tired of cruising the web for local gaming groups. There are so few of them and they all seem to be at least 40 miles away from me. Has anyone tried Craig’s List to recruit new players?
Hey Carl: Welcome to the blog. I’m really sorry for you guys and I really must say I’m impressed you all tried to soldier on after your friend’s unfortunate departure.
A Hiatus is a good idea.
If you can’t find another Mr. personality, might I suggest that you tailor the new campaign to the quieter, more introverted style of the group. Maybe go for investigative scenarios and more problem solving than rich stories…
Maybe some of your wallflowers will develop into something else.
Arcana Evolved is the one thing about 3.5 I regret not having explored. Do check Monte’s old forum (Okay…Your Turn) for a ton of AE stuff. They have a great community.
Thanks for the warm welcome, and the thoughtful suggestions.
Not to induce too much more empathetic suffering, but my friend was also my father-in-law (my wife is one of my players) and his son (my brother-in-law)also plays in my game. We had some sad, mechanical sessions for a while there, but the game was part of the healing process. As I said, it’s been a little over a year now and while we all still miss him a great deal, the worst of it is over. Again, thanks for your sympathy.
I like your suggestion of a quiter game, but I don’t know that that’s what my players would want. While none of them are strong role-players, they are all hardcore roll-players. I have some of the most tactically sophisticated players I’ve ever seen. So much so that unless I play an encounter to the hilt they’ll stomp the opposition in a most embarassing fashion. Most encounters I have to push +1ECL just to make the fight last longer than a round. Game balance a problem? No, their characters aren’t over-powered, they just embody a terrific combination of tactical and strategic skill combined with some stunningly lucky die rolling.
This is not to say that they’re a bunch of min/maxers. They make thoughtful character development choices and take great pride choosing and refusing magic items and equipment because, “My character would never use something like that.” It’s not so much that they’re wallflowers, but rather that they don’t do role-playing encounters well at all. When an NPC talks to them and asks them a question, they all sit patiently waiting for me to continue. They love it when I narrate and describe, but for whatever reason fail to pick up that ball and run with it. That is until I say those 3 magic words, “Roll for initiative.” Then, look out!
Maybe I should run a few wargames?
Nah, not wargame, just maybe a more tactical campaign.
What about a Mission Impossible type campaign where they get to plan stuff and have fights in ludicrous settings?
In fact, instead of going the Arcana Evolved way, maybe they’d like to explore the Iron Heroes/Tome of Battle type of game.
That being said, if you plonked a huge amount to buy AE, you should try it.
I know all about your type of group, mine is pretty much the same. They are used to working together and can get quite scary.
Of course, if you are going to stick with D&D 3.5 (and/or its derivative) I strongly suggest that you up the ante in your combat encounters by providing numerous foes who’s CR are equivalent (or 1 less) than the players.
Experienced players break the whole CR system because it assumes a certain level of inexperienced and sub optimal choices by players during combat (that’s my opinion, but I’m sure I’m close to the truth on that).
So if you have 3 players playing at level 5, send them again 3 CR 5 critters and a few CR 2s then make the combat in a semi-hostile/complex environment…
They should love it…
My 2 cents…
-Chatty-
Experienced players break the whole CR system because the it assumes a certain level of inexperienced and sub optimal choices by players during combat (that’s my opinion, but I’m sure I’m close to the truth on that).
Oh yeah, that is absolutely true. That’s a large part of why it is so easy to make low level adventures that level the party once per session. I find that so long as I don’t use things capable of reliably one-hitting the party’s close in combatant, an established group can take on multiple EL+2 or +3 encounters at the rate of resource attrition that the DMG assures you an EL = average party level encounter will do. (Except for Dragons. Dragon CRs are intentionally set below their difficulty levels.)
Mission Impossible! Excellent suggestion. Thanks, ChattyDM!
I recently watched Ocean’s 13 — this would also make a good campaign template as my group loves the criminal-with-a-heart-of-gold archetypes.
I actually have Iron Heroes (IH) and in a local gamestore’s recent blowout sale I managed to pick up all the additional books I was missing for that setting. I have been vacillating between IH and AE (Arcana Evolved) but since I’ve had AE longer (I bought it from Monte’s booth at the Gen Con where he debuted it!) I figured I’d start with that.
Now I need to get my game table built, my digital projector mounted and I’ll be ready to start building a new campaign.
Thanks again for the inspiration.
I too watched Ocean’s 13 and it truly is a template for such a type of adventure.
Cool Carl have fun and don’t hesitate to drop by to tell you how it went…
In the past, I’ve run into this stage repeatedly with the regular players I’ve had for the past 9 years. We’ve had more than a few campaigns fizzle out after just 2-3 sessions. The most popular 3.0/3.5 games I’ve run were those that were meant to be brief – like running a self-updated Ravenloft game (The House on Gryphon Hill.) Those lasted somewhere around 6-8 sessions.
So far 4E hasn’t been any kinder in terms of longevity, but I’ve just reverted to my familiar role as DM – with new tools from WotC and articles like these, I hope to have a long-running game that the players will love as much as I do.
@Tyrconnel: Have you reflected on the reasons for this? Is your group jaded of D&D in general or are they tired of playing together? In the past, changing games for a few months helped us.
But it took us 3 changes to break our Stagnation phase: We added a new player, we switched to 4e and I started doing my own adventures. All this together helped get back to performing.
@ChattyDM Everyone, every time, says that they’re excited about starting a new campaign, and I think *that* is the problem – most of ’em like character creation more than anything. I think they’re still psyched about my new game, and I’m hoping to fight their ADD with short, exciting adventures. I think Eberron is ideal for that, with its propensity for world-hopping. I also tried the idea of a “pilot adventure,” which I feel was a good call.
As for changes, we’ve played a few d20 Modern games, one Star Wars, and one Top Secret. Member-wise, my “regular group” has gained and lost many over the years, X-Men style. We’ve hit the Performing stage a few times, but I think we’ve mainly been trapped into Storming and Stagnation. Thanks for the tips on how to recognize and fix this!
MIght I suggest that you all commit to a mini-campaign. Like the ones I play. Since you guys seem to petter out at the 6-8 session mark, plan your session for that many sessions. Then after the end, if players still want to play in the same game world, fast forward the world’s time a few months/years and start again… with new or old PCs as players see fit.
By doing this, you’ll actually get a sense of continuity as PCs will rise in level… even though a few PCs change along the way.
My 2 cents.