One more significant preview of 4e D&D has been released before a lot more is given away at the D&D Experience. The entire Rogue class has been posted for your amusement/derision.
Just a few things that stood out to me:
- No more rolling for hit points. You get a fixed amount at first level, and every level thereafter.
- Weapon groups are gone, weapon proficiencies are back.
- Sneak Attack damage doesn’t go up nearly as high, but generally works the same as before.
- Tumble skill is gone, folded into Acrobatics and can’t do the really badass “avoid attacks of opportunity” anymore. Rogues, however, have something similar as an actual ability.
- With saves and attack bonuses being more general, 4e classes are less chart-heavy.
- There’s a “healing surges” amount listed. We know some general things about other classes triggering your healing, acting similar to second wind, etc, but the actual details still are yet to be revealed.
- There are suggested Builds for classes on what feats, skills, and abilities to select. This is just like WoW. (kidding!)
Exciting stuff. Kinda interesting to see a few of the changes.
I’m really not too thrilled about the hit tumble is taking, unless AOOs are undergoing a large change as well.
The sneak attack damage drop is pretty big, especially with the increase to hit points it appears we’ll be seeing. I suppose WotC is aiming for longer more “epic” battles?
Definitely going to miss weapon groups, adds a lot of additional flavor to characters.
The character powers section doesn’t really read very well, hopefully they take some time to clear those up.
omg make it 6JUN08 is all I can really say 🙂
I’m glad to see that Tumble is not going to be the “must have” skill for everyone anymore, and it becomes more of a Rogue thing. I agree on your other points. The layout thing is one of those ways that the web and the printed book really can’t compare.
Mmm…so far, I’m iffy about what I’m seeing…feels like they’ve neutered the hit point progression and the Powers that the rogue is getting feels a lot like 9 Swords did…although, that’s just a personal minus…
The article seems to be down! AAAAAARGGHHH!
Well, from what you’ve written, let me at least react to one thing:
Standard hit points: HOORAY!!!
Rev: Expect a lot of 9 Swords style stuff, they list it as being a major preview of 4e.
DM: I bet the article is being SLAMMED right now, so that’s probably it. You can also try the printer-friendly version.
I have to say everything here looks fine to me. The direction of the combat system looks very good and clean. However, the greatest issue for me in 3E was lack of class balance, so its impossible to judge that aspect based on one class.
While I am a bit sad to see weapon groups go away, it’s not like fighters benefited at all from being able to use a Guisarme instead of a Long Spear.
It looks to me like they are doing a lot of things which make base ability scores a lot more important, so that a Fighter with a high con stands out much more from one with a low con because the random element is removed.
I’m not sure what I think of the “Dex vs. Fortitude” and various abilities, but it seems to make sense for a Rogue to use Dex to hit and add to damage instead of penalizing one that doesn’t have a high strength.
Dave: They had suggested builds in the 3e PHB too, they were usually just stupid though and took a lot of the fun of character creation away.
OK, here we go. My observations:
Healing Surges. This isn’t new info, but I have to admit: If there is one element I’m not sure about from the 4E previews, it is this. I’m just not convinced that it makes sense, from the flavor perspective. We will see how it winds up playing out, however.
Weapon Proficiencies. I think I am glad to see them back. As a DM, it was sometimes frustrating to watch the versatility that players had with weapon groups. MWAHAHAHA!
Simplified Skill System. No new info here; we knew that they were going to move this direction, ala Saga Edition. I am glad to see this, in part, because I think it makes the rogue more playable, in the long run.
Powers. I like the suggested at-will, encounter, and daily powers. This firms up the talk about power durations. I’ve been an advocate for this sort of simplification in spells for a long time, and I think it just makes sense. If you’re not a fan of per-encounter abilities, you’re not going to like 4E. For me, it’s a long time coming.
Brawny and Trickster Builds. I like the two builds. It’s a cool way to present archetypes to new players, inexperienced players, or players that haven’t played a given class before.
Shuriken. I’m not sure the weapon belongs in core, even if it is cool, and even if Midnight used them. That’s a long-standing complaint, though.
Sneak Attack Damage. This seems waaay too nerfed for me. Having said that, I will have to see what a 22nd-level encounter looks like to know for sure if 5d6 is too little.
Powers Again. I’m a sucker for flavor text, and I love the power descriptions.
All in all, I give the new rogue a B+. That could rise to an A-, once I’ve seen what he’s up against at various levels.
As I mentioned on my side, I really like the at will powers to target someone’s dex/Will/Fort save. It’s an intriguing upgrade to the standard attack mechanic.
It will remain to be seen how this scales up against monster and character classes Saves.
As for the 50% nerf to sneak attack (and the fact that it only triggers once a round) I think there will be a severe deflation of HP and a getting rid of iterative attacks… yay!
Phil: I’m pretty sure somewhere in the preview books they mentioned Rogues having some abilities that will grant them “combat advantage” even mid-encounter. I believe they were putting a lot of focus on letting Rogues use their sneak attack ability more often, possibly explaining the “nerf” to damage. Though I’d hestitate to call ANYTHING a nerf since this is not a change to an existing system but an entirely new system. If the entire damage system works differently, I’d hardly call that a nerf.
re: weapon groups
I’m not entirely sure they’re gone, thanks to the reference to “Light Blades” in the powers. While proficiencies may be for specific weapons, feats and powers may not.
re: dex vs fort/will
Think of this as a touch attack roll, plus a will/fort save, in a single roll.
re: sneak attack damage
It does indeed seem much lower, but as Bartoneus said, rogues should be able to gain combat advantage pretty easily. In fact, the Crimson Edge power grants it.
Additionally, that sneak attack damage is added on top of powers, so it could get quite vicious.
And as for the higher starting HP, I don’t believe monsters will get this, so expect lower HP on the monster side, compared to PCs.
re: healing surges
Remember that hit points do not represent physical damage to a character. HP is an abstraction, representing damage, luck, fatigue, and other factors.
In fantasy literature, whenever a character takes a moment to re-center himself before charging back in, that is what a Second Wind/Healing Surge is.
Does the flavour sound better now?
Graham – I can live with that as a healing surge, in terms of flavor. But, old habits die hard, and all… hit points used to mean something very different, and that’s one of those very old habits… But, yes. Definitely. I can buy into that. Also, good catch on the “light blades.”
All – As far as sneak attack being “nerfed” (don’t you guys love that word? I know I do!) you’re all correct; it’s a new scale. That’s why I said I’d have to see what an encounter looks like at a given level to know if it has been nerfed or not. Still, you have to admit, at first blush it does sound nerfed, and it would be nerfed on the current scale. And, just for the sake of it one more time: NERF.
OOH, I forgot to mention one thing in my earlier post:
Combat Advantage. I love this idea. Everything I’ve heard about this says that it will streamline things. If nothing else, abilities that say “any time the opponent would be denied their dexterity bonus” and some of the other bulky wordings can now say “when the character has combat advantage.”
The DM:
I figured that would help. 🙂
My fiancee was actually having a similar issue with that type of ability, until I started talking as such. Now she’s looking forward to getting healing surges with 4e.
(Though I personally think they should have stuck to calling them Second Wind, as it sounds less magical.)
By the way, for characters with magical power sources it could actually be magical closure of wounds as well. But for martial characters, the above works.
I find it funny that a lot of people are concerned with the new “class roles”, while the healing surge mechanic clearly goes against what people consider the problem with roles. This allows a group without a cleric to easily function without resorting to excessive amounts of potions that simply replace the role of the cleric. Now the party can function normally sans cleric, but when one is included in the party everyone’s healing improves and everything falls into place.
I think the problem many players are having as hit points is that they gained a level in abstraction. D&D hit points have ALWAYS been abstract, not even BD&D had core injury rules as far as I’m aware.
But then you’ve got video games, which took the concept, and showed your character being hit by bullets and losing hit points. That wasn’t how D&D HP were supposed to work, but after being exposed to it in other media, it cross-filtered in.
Now in previous editions, healing magic that specifically seals wounds and knits bones was the primary method of gaining HP back, thus further strengthening the HP/Injury link… even while HP continues to specifically say that it’s often not injury. (And thus leading to other problems, like the Fighter who drops 100 feet then just shrugs and gets up.)
Now the designers are really saying “No, seriously, HP is not a measure of being injured” to try and address some other issues in the game. We’ll see if they can convince most players- that particular bit of verisimilitude has never bothered me, but I’ve played with plenty of people who it’s their #1 hangup.
Graham – Second Wind might have been better, I agree. Still, I’m the sort that could live with a mechanic if they called it “Nerfing Up” as long as it is a usable mechanic.
Bart – Honestly, I’m hoping you’re right. My group, generally speaking, doesn’t like playing Clerics, and this may give them a good excuse not to. Then again, maybe 4E will fix whatever the heck it is that my guys think is wrong with the Cleric in the first place.
The Game – Good point about “No, seriously, HP is not a measure of being injured.” I think it makes sense, and one of the biggest problems one of my guys has had with D&D, over the years, has been Hit Points as a measurement of injury.
I can buy into it. Let’s see if everyone else can.
As for playing Clerics, in my experience nobody likes to because they do nothing but heal and buff.
It has been said that, in general, a Cleric will be devoting no more than one standard action per combat explicitly to healing. (Read: many of their healing and buffing abilities will be passive, or part of other actions as well.)
“As for playing Clerics, in my experience nobody likes to because they do nothing but heal and buff.”
Are you kidding? 3.0/3.5 clerics can be combat monsters if twinked right. Unfortunately, thats also what made the cleric in my opinion a tad too strong.
I got tired of playing a cleric after the party thought I was a better tank then the fighter with a poor constitution score.
Clerics were by far the best class in 3.0/3.5, but they were fairly boring. Lots of armor/hp/heaing, good spells, but lacked a big punch.
Are you kidding? 3.0/3.5 clerics can be combat monsters if twinked right.
Oh, for sure. They can be.
But when playing in a group, especially a group that doesn’t visit WotC’s CharOp boards, they are expected to be healers/buffers.
And there’s nothing that creates more anger (in D&D or MMOs) than hearing “Oh, I’m not a ‘healing’ priest.”
“Clerics were by far the best class in 3.0/3.5, but they were fairly boring. Lots of armor/hp/heaing, good spells, but lacked a big punch.”
I always felt that playing a Psion had a great “punch” to it, you could always felt like your spells were cool and useful.
(super nerd voice)
Psions don’t have “spells” they have psionic powers, duh!