I don’t often do editorials. I initially thought of presenting what I wanted to say in some kind of manifesto but the last thing this hobby needs is another crusade, or a so called leader that ends up doing more damage than good.
So editorial it is… for now. 🙂
A few weeks ago, I posted this on Twitter:
Old/New/OSR… I’m sick of this. Full-Spectrum Gaming for me please. Sword & Wizardry, D&D4e AND Burning Wheel. You DM it, I’ll play it.
To say that I’m sick and tired of online geek debates about one true way-ism is an understatement. Not the arguing and debate mind you, this is necessary and healthy for all creative fields. I mean that while my good friend Graham occasionally gets on my nerves with his long-winded defences of D&D 4e, I find that he does it with respect and arguments born out of what I perceive as good faith, enthusiasm and, usually, the data to support his claims.
You know, what the Greeks used to call the logos, the rational discourse.
What I can’t stand anymore is the rampant geek rants, easy inflammatory blog posts, short-sighted comment baits and, above all, the hate-filled insults spewed by those hidden behind the comfort of Internet anonymity on RPG blogs and forums. Hell, it’s not surprising that the 2 online trash RPG talkers I know the most, RPG Pundit and that guy that keeps telling us that our dungeon sucks, are still anonymous. It’s much easier to hate behind the safe wall of anonymity than show your face and take your lumps as much as you dish them out. Hell it’s classic trash radio behaviour where we’re told “Hey! I’m just telling it how it is as the man of the street” and get insulted when we try to challenge it.
(What kills me is that both are pretty decent writers with opinions about RPGs I’d otherwise would love to know about)
Furthermore, the drama that we as a niche of a niche can generate over things as asinine as the word “porn-star”, ‘roleplaying” or “democracy” is absolutely insane. Especially when mobs mentality sets in and you can see in various discussion threads how people turn into sharks or worse, scavengers.
I understand that as geek, we are very passionate about the things we love. That’s a core definition of what defines us as a tribe. So much so that we can get very emotional about the weirdest stuff and devote energies to them that others devote to national sports or even patriotism. Yet many seems to find it so much easier to let the inner beast go during debates and unleash whatever poison has welled up inside to destroy all chances of harmonious, if lively discourse.
I mean, Wil Wheaton has written that he had to flee convention floors in tears back in the early 90’s because he was jeered, booed and insulted off stage. What the hell? Seriously? The more I read his blog and books the more incredulous I get. Is this an American thing or are Trekkies that hardcore?
The thing that slays me here is that as geeks, we were far likelier as a demographic to have been among the nerds that the jocks and misfits at school preyed upon. I know that many of us were insulted, laughed at, ostracized and made fun of by “more popular kids” (how I hate this expression) or by the bullies that climbed our schools Darwinian pyramids by shoves and stolen Walkmans. Many of us know what being bullied was like and it left scars that some still mend decades later.
I have been blessed by genetics, luck and strong-minded parents to become one of those rare charismatic, cocky, socially skilled nerds. Thus, I have been spared a lot of that above anguish (being 5’11” and weighing 180 lbs at 13 helped too). Yet I tried to stand up to my share of bullies at school, on my behalf or those of friends. I got into more school fights (or was ready for them) than I care to remember. I’ve actually had to use my judo training in junior high a few times and I’ve gotten my face punched and kicked so I could show the bullies that they had nothing on me. They left me alone if I didn’t flinch after the first hit (dodging to spare the nose was important, he he he).
It was important to me back then to make a stand for those that couldn’t or wouldn’t. It still is, today.
I can’t understand why geeks feel the urge to hurt each other. Is it just to try to register above the increasingly high noise-to-content ratio of the net, lost in a sea of vacuous spiteful arguments and flavours of the month? Is it because they’re bored and this is more fun than playing the games themselves? I just don’t get it.
Above all, I decry with all my heart the trolls and jerks that hide behind anonymous accounts, or behind so called community leaders just so they can take pot shots at those that take the time to publish an opinion, a thought or a concept on gaming forums and blogs that may go somewhere that is slightly uncomfortable, conceptually different or heaven forbid, flawed.
I find it tragically ironic that from the group that often was a victim to those bigger, stronger and/or meaner bullies back in school, some decided to secede from our tribe and join the opposition. Instead of physical and verbal bullies, they became digital trolls and ogres. Dishing it out from their forum tree-forts and blog dungeons.
These are the traitors among us. These I have no respect for.
We as tabletop gamer geeks should use our energies to create, not destroy. I’ve been doing my part, building communities, creating lasting friendships, getting stuff done and motivating people to fight their inner demons and start scary projects. You should do so too. In your own way.
If you take a any pleasure in telling people how wrong they are or how they should be doing it, why don’t you just shut the hell up and propose a new path instead of denouncing it.
When darkness surrounds us, some choose to decry it. Others choose to light a torch.
There is so much less competition in that second group. I’d like there to be more as there are many kinds of light and mine isn’t better than anyone’s.
Peace. Now let’s play something different! I hear Dread is cool…
*Applause*
Amazing post, Phil. Seems like a lot of us are getting fed up with people on the internet anonymously hating things lately.
.-= E. Foley – Geek’s Dream Girl´s last blog ..Coping With Being Single: Ur Doin’ It Wrong =-.
Great post! My greatest hope is that people find what they love and play it and stop wasting so much time tearing others down.
.-= Sarah Darkmagic´s last blog ..Doors, Double-Hinged for Your Pleasure =-.
@Marcel: Thanks! 🙂
@GDG: Your post on Fuzzy navel girl was the spark that brought back the idea I formulated after Pax. Thanks! 🙂
@Sarah: Agreed. That evening at Pax where so many strangers were playing D&D in a Boston celtic pub (with a Norse name, go figure) was just too awesome an example.
cant find a link online for it now, but my rss feed for critical hits main page shows the link for Wil Wheaton as dndforpornstars blog… but my musings feed shows the correct link…
Don’t know if anyone else saw it, just had me very confused for a bit there… “is Wil actually Zak? no….”
@saeblundr: No worries man. I fixed it. I initially linked top Zak’s blog and then removed all links from that paragraph to focus on the whole article instead of past drama and tiffs. Thanks for bringing it up. It will self correct on the next RSS update cycle… or something
The phenomena of being abused and becoming the abuser is human, not just geek-based. Kids that are beaten are more likely to beat their kids. Frat boys that get paddled can’t wait to paddle the next class. And Geeks start edition wars behind clever avatars and obscure nerd reference usernames.
Chatty, I think you are unwittingly feeding the trolls. You know that the best thing to do regarding trolls is to starve them, right? 🙂
A great post, Phil, but I wonder if it doesn’t amount to so much shouting into a hurricane. I suppose it’s my age, but I too get annoyed at the knee-jerk responses, and uninformed argument baiting that occurs all over the net. Unfortunately, I don’t think we’ll ever see an end to it.
It’s easy to get caught up in one’s own hobby. Since we’re doing something we love, we’re quite passionate when it comes to protecting how that hobby is perceived and valued. Too many of us forget that the hobby isn’t “owned” by any one group of people. It’s easy to point and say, “You’re doing it wrong!” The pointing just becomes easier with the anonymity of the internet.
I can’t prove it, but I suspect a good part of the group that is “giving the stink-eye” to the rest of us, are probably young turks eager to sew a little chaos into things. Like any established group, there’s an “old guard”. Anytime one of these young turks can spin off a clever retort like “lrn2ply noob!” and make others laugh, they liken it to a small victory. I’ve learned to simply ignore it. Again, I think my age, and the fact that I’ve raised three sons (youngest will be a freshman in high school next year) has sort of inured me to “trash talk” if you will. You mentioned Wil Wheaton. I can’t speak to Mr. Wheaton’s personal struggles with being insulted (particularly in front of large groups of people), but I suspect like all actors, he eventually learned that it comes with the territory. I’m not excusing such behavior, I’m simply saying that it’s the nature of the beast. If someone stands out, there will be others that seek to tear them down in some fashion.
I think the closest analogy I can provide is probably the one that is the antithesis of all things geek — the sports fan. Sports fans are notorious for trash talking each other, even to the point of violence. They all love the sport, but there are always going to be those that feel they have some edge which they imagine gives them the right to insult and walk all over someone else’s opinion. Doesn’t mean they’re right, doesn’t mean their wrong, it just means they’re being a dick.
And I guess that’s what it really comes down to. Perhaps the best strategy for “the old guard” to take is to simply encourage others to “not be dicks”. Enjoy the exercise of your opinion, even if it’s a uncomfortable and unpopular one, but don’t be a dick while you do it. At the same time, we need to brush aside the comments we feel are hurtful, and recognize “dickery” (think that’s from the Penny Arcade lexicon) for what it is.
Sorry about the rambling response. This was great thought-provoking post. Thanks, Phil!
.-= deadorcs´s last blog ..A Major Award! =-.
@TME: Most likely so. But that doesn’t mean this needs to be acceptable, taken at face value and not do anything about it. I’ve actually had experiences on the blog where would be trolls turned into active commenters and then very decent bloggers just because I took the time to talk it out in the comments and the other readers picked up on it and created a constructive environment.
@Claus: I expect to ping on some trollish radar and be called names yes… but it needs be said. I believe that in this particular cycle of our hobby, at the dawn of a new economic cycle and freed for the mental prison that we let the OGL encapsulate us in; now is the time to create the next Vampire the Mascarade, the next Burning Wheel or some crowd-sourced awesomeness. Every troll and bully is, unwittingly or nor, an enemy of that potential creative movement.
Dread sucks! 4e forever!
🙂
Well-stated sir.
.-= gamefiend´s last blog ..Off the grid: Lightning lure =-.
@deadorcs: I don’t think it’s an age thing. I think its a callousness thing. Both guys I refereed too in the blog are self proclaimed grognards and their style speak of a certain age.
Regardless, it comes down to contempt, one of the worse emotions one can convey to another human being. Sport fans will trade anger and blows. Will call each other names and will probably hate each other passionately… but will they ever exhibit contempt to one another as you can see on RPGnet, the RPG Site and some RPG blogs comments… especially those of known game designers?
No wonder guys like Mike Mearls did near full retreat out of online life. I hope people here treat Chris a little better (then again, Mike was also know to run around with a torch when everyone’s fuse were a little short… but that’s another, very interesting debate we can have later).
But yeah, I don’t expect to change anything here. That’s what editorials are for. Provoke new thoughts. And it’s working very well within the 1st hour after publication.
Finally, I just want to point out that a moderate’s point of view should still be shared with passion and rigour. We are a lot more out there than jerks. Sometime our voices must be heard above the jeers and the smirks. 🙂
@gamefiend: Brother, I know someone who needs a dreads-slap right now! 😀
“Above all, I decry with all my heart the trolls and jerks that hide behind anonymous accounts, or behind so called community leaders just so they can take pot shots at those that take the time to publish an opinion, a thought or a concept on gaming forums and blogs that may go somewhere that is slightly uncomfortable, conceptually different or heaven forbid, flawed.”
Well said. Bravo.
I do think, though, that we are actually evolving to a superior, more positive discourse on the internet. It will take a while and there always will be ugliness, but I am already seeing signs of a general trend towards better behaviour. There is a kind of assumption that people will always behave badly because it is the internet, but we forget how young this medium is and how new we are too it. We will grow up and it is already happening.
But it won’t happen on it’s own. It’s up to all of us to behave responsibly and positively. Your post is a great reminder of that.
.-= walkerp´s last blog ..episode 8 – an interview with Beat to Quarters creator Neil Gow =-.
I’m with you.
The closest I tended to come to edition wars is people trying to push their new shiny system on me. It rarely worked if they were just selling the system on its own; I will try a new system, but only if someone manages to offer me something that makes having to actually think about the mechanics and break my immersion worthwhile, and if people tell me I ‘need’ to change what I’m doing because something new and shiny is out there, I’m probably going to fight back. But as I was watching the Edition Wars of ’08, all I could think was that the whole mess was pretty needless, and based entirely on the silly idea that people needed to ‘switch’. And why would they? My group switched editions–and systems, as often as not–depending on who was DMing and which of said DM’s crazy ideas happened to be at the forefront. We wanted something that would last a few sessions, we played 3.5. We needed a one-shot, everyone took turns at the computer belonging to the one guy not running the game who had the character generator for Fourth. We wanted me running, we played something else entirely.
Then again, I also think that they need to start teaching argument and rhetoric in schools again, so that if we must have petty disagreements people are actually being both reasoned and reasonable. I’ve seen the running frustrations of a moderator on a teachers’ forum–this surprises me more than it should, I’m sure–with people who use dirty argument tactics or assume that people who oppose their viewpoints are trying to tear them-personally down. I’m sick of those sorts of fights; can’t we argue with civility and not get into these silly little camps?
.-= Ravyn´s last blog ..Choosing a Viewpoint =-.
Very well said, good sir. I, too, was a popular geek/nerd in school, but I know plenty of folks that were less fortunate than I. In an odd way, being a boisterous gaming geek helped me to mask the fact that I was gay and closeted. How strange these days to know almost no closeted gay friends but to know many closeted gamers.
Being a geek who crosses over into multiple fandoms, I’ll give you the phrase I love to invoke. “All the best and worst people I know, I’ve met in the [blank] fandom.” Whether that fandom is sci-fi, gaming, furries, or any other, there will always be those who want to build everyone up (I *hope* I’m one of those), and those who want to tear other people down to make themselves feel better.
And I think that’s the core of the matter that you bring to bear. I think that, in order for some people (sad, rather pitiable people) to feel good about themselves, they need to make others around them feel bad. It’s the same instinct that will always fuel bullying, but, unlike face-to-face bullies, who can be done away with by standing firm and giving back what you get, the fairly anonymous cloak of the internet allows them to strike without fear of retaliation.
All we can really do is to be better than our foes. Don’t drop to their level. Raise the bar. Make them slink away in defeat. This post is a fine way to start.
I should probably clarify that the specific post of mine that you linked to (thanks, btw) is not my normal modus operandi. I had been discussing some edition stuff with Labyrinthian prior to that, where he had wondered openly about the accuracy of another editorial he had read. Through that, he decided to actually go through what bothered him/he didn’t get about 4e, and explicitly asked me to respond to it all so he could learn what the 4e fan’s viewpoint was.
Regardless, I have to agree with this post. Whenever I do discuss systems, or anything really, I try to avoid the negative, at least about opinions. If an argument is stupid, I’ll call you on it, and if you’re factually wrong, I’lly tell you (and tell you why, as you well know. 🙂 But if your opinion differs? That’s fine. Here’s why I hold mine, why do you hold yours?
Believe it or not, I even agree with the Full Spectrum Gaming concept. Though my preferred system to run is 4e D&D, I’ll also play anything. In fact, on Wave, I had become involved in an OSRIC game, a Savage Worlds game, a 4e game, and a Star Wars SAGA game. The first two kind of disintegrated for me, I left the 4e game due to time issues, and the SAGA game had some GM trust issues, but I was happy to play in all while they lasted. In fact, I may be getting into a Pathfinder game on Wave soon, and I’m sure I’ll enjoy that (though I have no interest in running it, or playing a spellcaster).
I even enjoyed the S&W game at Gencon well enough, though if I was to play it again I’d probably replace the initiative rules.
So full spectrum gamer? Sure. Full spectrum GM? Less so.
.-= Graham´s last blog ..Wherin I debate 4e and call Healing Surges realistic =-.
Oh, and @deadorcs –
Definitely not an age thing. I’m 26, and I know others younger than me that feel the same way about this sort of discourse.
In fact, if you go to the worst haven of some of this (4chan and the like) and look at some of the rallies they hold, many of the people in the Anonymous masks are definitely in their 30s/40s.
So yeah, not age. I’d go with Maturity.
…but I think you may have just explained why I don’t care for team sports…
.-= Graham´s last blog ..Wherin I debate 4e and call Healing Surges realistic =-.
I agree with this too, and I agree with the other posters here that a really significant problem is the injection of scorn and contempt into debates. Not liking someone’s game or their opinion or the way they do things does not require scorn, just a few polite words. I just don’t get the level of emotional involvement in some of these debates.
.-= faustusnotes´s last blog ..Playing Pathfinder in Japanese =-.
“I also think that they need to start teaching argument and rhetoric in schools again”
Sorry as a teacher I have more important things to worry about than the ability of someone to hold a debate on the internet. Further I’ve seen the results of people who think that the way to argue is to use the rules of argument and rhetoric to disassemble the arguments of their opponents; it doesn’t lead to civil discussion or even productive argument. It leads to a whole lot of “your post is wrong because of this fallacy” which is by and large useless.
That said, the sort of “my game is better than yours” posting that is all to common at the moment could really stand to stop. If we are having fun playing our games that is all that matters really isn’t it?
.-= John – ObsidanCrane´s last blog ..What do you do? =-.
Huh, sounds like a bad American high school movie. My geek days in school weren’t anything like that even though we played with TI calculators and MtG cards – in a high school dedicated to sports (though it didn’t have a school team for any sport unlike the US). I guess I went through the Finnish school system instead of some anti-intellectual nightmare. Phew:
@walkerp: I hope you are right and am doing what I can (however significant it may be in such a near limitless media) to make it a better place. 🙂
@Ravyn: Agreed about the games. As for teaching debating and discourse, I could not be more in agreement. The key here is to teach disagreement management and empathy of the other’s point of view. My children have been trained in kindergarden and 1st grade on a program called “Toward the Pacific” which thought conflict management and peer to peer conciliation, leaving adults out so they can deal with issues themselves. Not perfect, but it shows as my 8 year old boy can deal with the school’s rougher elements without having to resort to ‘telling” on others.
Hopefully, this and the values we teach them as parents will make them better equipped for their transition to their online lives as pre-teens (and the cyber-bullying that comes with it).
@AethanBear: Thanks. That line about being openly gay surrounded by closet gamers really cracked me up. Once the “I give a Damn” campaign is well established we should start a “I give a Dice” one. 🙂
@Graham: Hear hear, I will not DM or Pathfinder 3.5 anymore (unless its fully prepped for me), but I will play it. That’s what I meant by full-spectrum gaming.
@faustus: As The Main Event, I think part of the scorn and contempt comes from dishing back what was delivered in the past. But that’s exactly how you foster hatred and resentment. The cycle can be broken, sometimes from within, sometimes from without.
@John: We’ll have to disagree on the teaching issue to a certain point here (I too have been/am one). That people use acquired skills to cause harm is not in itself an end-all argument not to teach them. The fact that I was coached in debating at school helped me a lot deal with bullies then and now. Then again, this is not a school-only thing, this is the kind of things that households should also support. Knowing how to disagree is one of those soft skills that resolve a huge number of issues, both inside and outside of families.
@Pekka: I too believe it’s more of a North American thing (although I’d bet that Euro countries like Britain and France, where gaming isn’t established as “proper”, also have such jerks).
Finland seems to be special in terms of gaming. I would love to be pointed to a post that explores Finland’s relationship with games and how they are perceived culturally. I grew up in gamer family (both set of grandparents played card games, a lot) so I was spared grief there too. French Canadian, having evolved in a closed society somewhat controlled by the catholic church evolved traditions of family gathering to play cards and games that our English neighbors might not have.
I’m really curious about that. Enlightenment would be appreciated.
@AethanBear I like the closeted gamers remark too. It’s really funny because while I segment my online life, I’m not really closeted. I often plan my D&D sessions at a tea shop in Harvard Square and read the books during lunch. Sometimes people will ask what I am working on and when I tell them, it’s usually followed about a story about how they played when younger and that this miss playing now. Slowly, I’m bringing them back to the table.
.-= Sarah Darkmagic´s last blog ..Something More Personal =-.
I hang my head, I was one of those ‘oh noes, not 4e’ jerks. To be fair to myself, I am too nice to be a troll and my first expressions (before 4e came out) was of reluctance to try it. I did indulge in some 4e bashing until I caught myself. If someone is honestly asking me what I think of 4e, either because they haven’t tried it or for some other reason, the least I can do is give an honest answer. I now try to express what I find good about 4e and what I dislike about it. Bashing is too easy and shows that you haven’t really thought out why you dislike the topic, whatever it is.
4e will never be one of my favorite games. It’s yours? That’s ok, different strokes for different folks. GURPS? I loathe & despise it. Again, you love it? Great, have fun playing it, I won’t be at that table. Do I think less of you for playing it? No, obviously you get something out of that game that I just.don’t.get.
I was 1 of 3, count them, 3 geeks in high school; 4 my senior year when we ‘adopted’ a junior to play with us. We occasionally had a couple others who played AD&D with us, including a cheerleader. Hey, it was a really small high school, the cliques overlapped. But the three, & then four of us, were the only true geeks.
When I got to college, my geek circle exploded, into double digits! And we had all learned the lesson, wherever we were from, accept the other person’s oddity and they’ll accept yours. It seems that those trolls haven’t learned that lesson. I pity them.
This is a great editorial and I am enjoying the comments. Thank you.
Some of the negativity is probably tied to envy of another’s talent. Some may be a manifestation of the mindless free-floating rage that is so evident in today’s political theater. Some may just be “trash talk” from a gamer who is “trying on” the worst behaviors of the jock world.
The nastiness on ENWorld can be pretty distressing. For too many posters, it is always “You are the wrongest wrong in the history of wrong and deserve to be slapped silly” and never “I disagree”. The moderators do a pretty good job of limiting the damage, but it isn’t enough.
@John – ObsidianCrane
Actually, I see the situation you described as showing all the more why we need to teach proper argument and rhetoric. (And not just for arguing online. This is an important skill for settling disagreements in real life without hurting feelings, too.)
When used properly, proper argument teaches you how to keep fallacies out of your own arguments. This allows you to have a debate where personal attacks aren’t used, false conclusions aren’t reached, and other the thread of debate is less often derailed.
I also think there is great value in being able to recognise when someone else’s argument is fallacious. If, during a discussion, a fallacious conclusion is reached, and nobody recognises it as such, both parties will leave with a false conclusion about the topic. The ability to detect fallacy allows you to get closer to the truth in these situations. Personally, I think we’d all be a little better off if there weren’t so many false conclusions floating around.
That said, proper argument is not meant to be used as a tool to tear down others. Tact must be used, of course. The statement of “Ha, you used a fallacy in this minor part of your argument so you’re completely wrong and such ha ha!!!” is not part of good debate.
No, what it is part of is partially- or improperly-taught debate. Again, all the more reason that I believe argument should be fully taught, including how not to use it. Proper use should, indeed, lead to civil discussion and productive argument.
.-= Graham´s last blog ..Wherin I debate 4e and call Healing Surges realistic =-.
What we don’t know about John’s comment is what exactly his other teaching priorities are. If he’s teaching in a low-income neighborhood with a high dropout rate, then I totally get that debating is way down the list.
I think that the whole thing comes down to a few “simple” causes:
Everyone Wants to be Right. Especially us geeks, who highly prize our intelligence, we then put a lot of stock in being Right. Our opinion must be right because it’s went through the rigors of our experience, and our Oh So Smart contemplations and mechinations. And if they disagree with You, then they are Wrong and you need to show them. Thing of it is, what game you play and what you like is merely Taste, not Fact.
Pre-Emptive and Reflexive Defensiveness. Many folks on all sides seem to get defensive, because they either see what they Like as going away, or what they Like as being attacked. Setting aside the whole “I want WotC to know I like/don’t like this direction”, folks seem to be defensive. “Yeah well my edition can do that!” “Hey what do you mean by that, my edition isn’t’ good enough?” Folks feel the need to Defend and Justify their Choice of game and be hyper-vigilant to do so. In an internet world with such venom, the reflexive anticipation of venom is pretty easy to understand. But building a tolerance for that venom is something I think everyone needs to learn.
Us vs. Them. This is rather obvious, I won’t go into it.
Chatty: I don’t know any deep delving analysis of our national gaming culture but if you want North American perspective, the guests of honors of RopeCon (the largest rpg con here) have written about it in their blogs. E.g. Jonathan Tweets experience from ’03: http://www.jonathantweet.com/jotconropecon03.html
Great post and comments, especially AethanBear. I’m not so sure this issue is confined to the geek tribe though. My wife often frequents messagebaords for wives and mothers and see the same things. I think the biggest issue is the anonymity of the internet allows people to say things they would be afraid to say face-to-face.
Just like the current case about the cyber-bullies who caused a young girl to commit suicide http://tinyurl.com/ydpsfnu
Mean-spirited people who would normally have to keep their cruelty to themselves can now freely spew it because they don’t have to ‘be there’ to do it and face any repercussions or guilt.
Rae
@Rechan: Good insight on intelligence mixed with inferiority complex (which is what I think you were referring to) and the whole defensiveness mentality. Thanks for sharing them!
@Pekka: That was great reading. I should have accepted the invitation in 2008, I was even proposed a subsidy. 🙂
@Raevhen: Yes, the phenomenon is a lot larger than geeks. But the geek turned bully reality is a sad and troubling one. Looking for ways to strengthen our children and foster in them a sense of decency and help them find supporting communities like them is a priority of mine. That’s the other side of the internet medal, there are like minded kids there that can form friendship while surrounded by jerks.
Sometimes I hear about this offense or that insult, but when I go and check, I often don’t understand. Then again I grew up with USENET where trolling and flame-wars were the norm. If you survived it, you knew you had asbestos underwear. Or maybe I’m just not frequenting the places where the action goes down. I guess not reading many of the forums and avoiding the comment sections of many blogs is helping in that regard. 🙂
.-= Alex Schroeder´s last blog ..NPC Relations =-.
Chatty: Point taken and I wasn’t discouraging awareness or whatnot, simply saying I’m not ‘down on geeks’ because they’re… human. A sick misanthropic part of me was hoping to see a really unintentionally ironic trollish post, but I’m impressed that this segment of the human race managed to be civil. Kudos article commentator.
Welcome to the ROLPUNK movement, Phil!
http://unclebear.com/rolpunk-a-manifesto/
@Alex: Yes, it does help. I’m just not as fireproof as you are… yet. 🙂
@TME: Thanks. I re-wrote this text a few times to keep ranting to a minimum and keep the editorial tone. 🙂
@Berin: Thanks man. Been a longtime fan of the movement, just not as militantly so as your Zulu alterego.
Ok i’m going to start by saying “Hi.” and that I am a dragon with something to say. Now let me begin my own “rant” on the subject.
How true you are. This is something I just can’t stand. I see it all the times from you humans. It just breaks my fiery heart that you can be so mean to each other, then go and be a wuss and keep your identity secret. Well at least us dragons if we got a problem with someone we tell them to their face, if thay don’t like it then we can just burn your house down and loot your stuff. (not nessisarily in that order) But it is just something I do not get. You rant and rave and it then have enough guts to show yourself. I hean have some honor. I mean if you hide behind the wall and yell about how much you don’t like what someone is doing or how they’re doing it. Then that just shows how much you don’t care about your argument. Why don’t you stand on that wall and let your voice be heard. Word of warning, if you doo the latter please, make sure your argument makes sense. I’m tired of reading rants and raves that are just incoherent blather. (I tend to go off topic too. I’m a brass dragon. But C’mon you can at least make sense) Well I think that is enough from this dragon for today. I hope you liked it. Tell me anything I’m all earholes, I need to talk to someone, or something.
Your Friendly Brass Dragon,
Elderon Analas
Reminds me of an annoying scuffle I’ve gotten in recently over with some Burning Wheel fans who are…well…
They’re far too much in love with their own system. They were lambasting World of Darkness and other “old-think” systems for not being able to craft a story in the frame that they were used to. In other words, they’d become so married to Burning Wheel that they were having a hard time playing other games. I suggested maybe implementing some things they learned from Burning Wheel, and playing along with the “oldthink” games…
No dice. The reply I got was essentially “We may as well just play Burning Wheel, and use the setting from Game X.”
It’s annoying, especially when I find things to like about pretty much every system. Wasn’t it once about having fun?
.-= Andy´s last blog ..Hiatus =-.
I’m not sure that using the word “Traitors” isn’t just fanning the flames.
The best thing to do is lead by example. Post cool stuff, ignore the rest.
.-= Zachary´s last blog ..The Question of Piracy: RPG PDFs =-.
If as moderates we keep diluting the words of our grievances to buy peace and avoid any types of conflict, then we shall remain ignored. I stand by my words, as I always do, although we may disagree on the meaning of it given our different background and your stint in the military:
Per Dictionary.com:
Traitor.
1. a person who betrays another, a cause, or any trust.
2. a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country.
My meaning of traitor is #1, more specifically the 3rd part of it : trust.
As for fanning the flames, this was the only “spike” of the whole piece upon which the rest was built, a somewhat stronger reminder to people to stop being dicks and start being builders. Especially being dicks within our own tribes.
Ignored by whom?
I do appreciate the sentiment, but there will always be trolls. The best we can do is to play our game, have fun, and be a good example. There’s no time for the rest of the drama–all of us only have so many RPG experiences and games left in us, after all!
I think probably, Phil, it comes down to definition, as you suggested. Or maybe I’ve spent too much time at theRPGsite, so this sort of stuff seems pretty mild to me. 🙂
Either way, carry on! The more we play and create, the more positive a landscape we make.
.-= Zachary´s last blog ..The Question of Piracy: RPG PDFs =-.s
I meant to reply yesterday. For once more to appreciate what you are saying than to really add content or query.
And I actually see less of this now than I used to, so I think the forces of solidarity are already winning this particluar conflict. I think you are right to post this and especially in your emphasis on rational discourse, and breaking the cycle.
One can have very strong opinions, backed by decades of happy players and online reinforcement…but it still does not make you right about something that is still a preference. And as you say, you can debate and bring data to back it up…but there should always be respect for the other person’s point of view.
I will also point out that these wars of opinion and the poor manners we often see are symptomatic of a new online culture, where social ramifications for immature or maladjusted behaviors are few. I’ve seen enough posts and listened to my sister complain about poor treatment and filthy comments by male online gamers, and have watched debates in other venues get blown out of proportion to believe that your comments transcent gaming, whether you know it or not.
I will close by saying, as I often do, that I wish success to every game and gamer, this industry is too small to do anything but hope for growth so that your children and mine will find their version, their window into imagination, waiting for them when they grow up.
.-= LordVreeg´s last blog ..edited Froji – Demon Lord =-.
Oh, the irony…
😉
.-= Gerald Cameron´s last blog ..My Review of Race for the Galaxy: Rebel vs. Imperium =-.
@Zachary: The total absence of trolls here so far (and, suprisingly so, ever, on my blog) kinda makes the exchange weird. Focusing on fun is the thing. Editorializing is also fun (in doses) and is a whole lot harder to do than ranting (although they can both try to achieve the same purpose, expose one’s point of view).
@LordVreeg: I too harbour hope that a movement of decency will spread and that we’ll be better equipped to ignore the trolls and bullies like some of our more flame-resilient colleagues have been able to do since the USENET era. Thanks for the kind comment, as always.
@Gerald: I KNEW that you would drop by and do the ‘I told you dance’ 🙂 I’m paying forward the lesson I learned 2 years ago. That’s why I can now afford to do April Fools jokes with cool indie designers.
.-= ChattyDM´s last blog ..Mailbag 2 – Freelancing 101 =-.
Chiming in late (I admit, I’ve been more or less avoiding the blogosphere for weeks and you nicely encapsulate why) to offer more praise and thanks to thee for this wonderful post.
You really did help me feel a bit better about the whole recent brouhaha(s). It’s appreciated, and many thankyous.
.-= taichara´s last blog ..The Book of the White Cat =-.
@taichara: My pleasure. I didn’t expect this piece to act as a balm. I consider it as a super extra bonus. I had look at your blog (I had seen it before) and I find it cool that you produce all this new material for BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia.
Keep it up!
well i guess that no one really cares about what an old like myself has to say. but in your defense it was a bit of just a long winded rant. but in my defense i will state that i am a respected member of the Dungeon Mastering.com fan base and am a loyal follower of Yax and his great wizdom. if none of you can respect me for that then at least respect me for what i am A DRAGON. that’s all i got to say today.
@Elderon: It’s kinda hard for humans to interact with dragons. Even those color coded to be good. We never know what your game plan is, If you’re going to eat us or play a trick on us. You might also be a polymorphed sorcerer running a blog for all we know.
That being said, this piece was not written for dragons, or humans roleplaying them on the net and I chose not to answer because I’d rather, in this one specific case, deal with the writer and the geek than his construct, however original that may be. Otherwise, I can’t decode what is opinion and what is play.
As for being a Dungeonmastering fan, I am a good friend of Yax. I’m sad that he moved on from his blog to other projects as he was the master of RPG wisdom nuggets and building communities. Maybe you should invite Expy/ghost writer to your blog and start and Elder Dragon multi-author blog… that could actually be an interesting idea.
In my mind, I could never really bring myself to care too much about edition/system changes (except 3.5 because I was a poor college student at the time, but had no other issues with it other than ‘waaaah, I just bought 3.0’). I like the White Wolf system (despite my personal feelings on vampires), I like d20 systems, I like GURPS and West End Game’s Star Wars. I have preferences, sure, but I’m not going to take it personally because somebody else has a different preference?
I guess what bothers me is how personal so many people make it. Role Playing is about delivering a narrative, and sometimes that narrative is best delivered using a specific system. In my mind, that’s like starting a flame war over how Shakespeare should have written his plays in limerick form. If I say, “I prefer X gaming system,” I don’t want a torrent of flaming to rain down on my head. /rant
Anyway, I know I’m late to the party, but just wanted to throw my .02 cents in among the gold pieces already in the fountain. Great message!
.-= fanzabura´s last blog ..“It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.” =-.
I couldn’t agree with you more, Chatty. Two tours of duty in the desert taught me with crystal clarity that there are more important things in life than pointless, drama-inducing bickering, and internet flame wars (and the Edition Wars in particular) exemplify that. I feel sorry sometimes for the folk who get so caught up in that nastiness… it must be a lonely place to invest that much time and energy into trying to drag others down.
Thank you for this post.
.-= Jason Dawson´s last blog ..Wil Wheaton Said It Best…Don’t Be A Dick =-.
@ChattyDM
I know your point. I’m a brass dragon which are classified as “good” but, my profession is Assassin. I’m a blade for hire. But to my real point. I will try to adress al the points and other important topics and for the sake of well reality I will honestly go out of character and tell a bit about myself, or at least all that is relevent. One, I am truely a 16 year old boy. I am a dragon enthusiest and avid DnDer. NOT a sorcerer. Two, I am very fond of humans as i was raised by them. I take no joy in eating them, I stick to livestock and other animals. I only eat humans when food is scarce, though that rarely happens. Besides your all friends and I don’t eat friends. I do like jokes and pranks though I stay away from the dangerous things. You know things like putting a bag of gold in front of a trapdoor over a pit of harmless goo. [laughs to self] Three, I am a part time writer, sort of, and I am a geek as well. I spend almost all of my day ither thinking about playing DnD or, playing DnD. I hope that things can be clarified as to what is IN character and what is OUT OF character (should be fairly simple) but, you never know.
I like your idea of inviting Expy to my blog. I have yet to do that though I have a couple new writers, this includes Krystal a very active AND GOOD author of articles on DMing.com and another one of my friends and fellow DnDer. We hope to get more activity soon, but the Elder Dragon blog is a GREAT idea. I was hopeing to do something like it but never got around to it. I would also like you to be an author though I dobt you would have the time. (same way with Krystal) Anyway, running off topic. I like your blog here as well as DMing.com. I hope to become an avid fan like the way I am with DMing.com. If you don’t mind a dragon wandering you halls. Oh and to mention that they’re very wide and roomy. Agh, I’m doing it again. [smacks head with tail] Needless to say, I like your blog and I like to post here with friends.
Your Friend,
Alan “Elderon Analas” Patton
.-= Alan “Elderon Analas” Patton´s last blog ..Me in My Draconian Intirety =-.
@Jason: Thanks for the kind words man. While I haven’t lived experiences such as yours we both relate to the same relative futilty of generating/harnessing such negative energies on so little. I’m happy to see that you are passionate enough about RPGs to have created your own little corner of the RPG blogsphere. I read your “Don’t be a Dick” post and liked how you described the ingrained community values that a US military city can develop. Thanks for sharing that and thanks for reading!
@Elderon: Please thank your friend Alan for coming with you to discuss a bit more. I now understand you more and open my arms in friendship to you.
Maybe one day I’ll tell you more about my favourite dragon ever, a Bronze dragon called Plantagonox that brought lots of mischief and grief to my players about 3 years ago.
https://critical-hits.com//2008/01/15/mini-fluffncrunch-requiem-for-my-bronze-friend/
Tell you what, I’ll make a promise here and now, because I find it really cool that you teamed up with a teenager to make a blog. If you make it one full year and you work hard at becoming a better blogger (we all need to level up at first ), I will have Plantagonox do a guest post on your blog.
Deal? It’s harder than it looks but I’m sure it’s no impossible challenge for a Brass Dragon.
Wow! 50 comments? I’m blown away! Thanks everyone, it was nice to feel a sense of brother/sisterhood being weaved from this post through our small community. It reminds us how many awesome and nice people are among us. The vast majority in fact.
@fanzabuera: I’m not much of an English Lit geek, but I seem to recall that there has been many enflamed debates on Shakespear’s style 🙂 Joking aside, we both agree. Thanks for the insights and thanks for commenting!
.-= ChattyDM´s last blog ..Critical Bits for the week ending 2010-04-11 =-.
DEAL [holds out large claw] I hope to be putting up articles soon. Working on the origin of my first son Issaic, he’s a Half-Dragon. I love him so much. I also like that you like Alan he has to type all my messages for me as my claws are to big for the computer. Anyway, I hope to hear that story. I am glad to work on my blog and have people like you who support me. You are why I do this and get out in the public in my real form, people still run and point swords at me, but not as much now. Glad to have a friend here as well at DMing.com.
Your Friendly Brass Dragon,
Elderon Analas
P.S. [from Alan] If you were wondering NO I am not held here aginst my will. YES I like Elderon he is a good friend and never treats me bad. YES He treats me well, the meat may be a bit raw at times but, it is bearable and he is fine with hitting it with some more fire at times. YES I am an experienced Dragon-Rider. I have a saddle made just for Elderon and he likes it. I like flying with him, though when fe do tricks like flips I get a little scared, but I know he will catch me if I fall. He’s like a father to me.
Your dragon translator/ messenger,
Alan Patton
.-= Elderon Analas´s last blog ..Me in My Draconian Intirety =-.
Actually, Chatty… you’re more than a little of my inspiration to start The Action Point. I too have had my battles with clinical depression (caused by combat-related Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). I’ve been a reader pretty much from the beginning and finally got up the gumption to submit an article to Yax’s site. He picked it up and published it, and that was the beginning of my blog. Watching you intentionally manifest your dreams over the past couple years has been inspiring to me.
So yeah. Thanks again.
.-= Jason Dawson´s last blog ..Wil Wheaton Said It Best…Don’t Be A Dick =-.
Hi Chatty,
This may be controversial but I don’t think that online bickering/ out and out slanging matches are always a bad thing.
I think you have to put it into the context of the forum and your fellow posters present. Sure it would be completely wrong in this kind of setting, but if there are a group of people wishing to tear strips off each other willingly, then let them.
I think that ultimately its the responsibility of the mods to set the tone of a particular site or blog. If the tone is strictly one of peace and love thy fellow geek great, then this should be respected. If its a pantheon of chaos and destruction, Unleash Hell.
Ultimately I do get your point and do agree with it.
Perhaps people should adopt an approach of Safe Haven blogs/sites and those that are open to any approach for those that relish in abusive arguments.
Cheers
Aradan
@Aradan: You know what? I think that having special ‘Fight Club’ forums and blogs could be cathartic. At least people would go there to fight vehemently and leave the more peaceful alone. Until they organize under a strong, insane leader and bring down all RPG companies and 1000+ reader RPG blogs.
Hmmm, maybe not such a good idea after all. 🙂
Seriously, I get your argument, but I’d stay in the Safe Haven part, I’m done with being understanding and ‘turn the other cheek’ with manner less bullies.
Getting people to go to the “Fight Club Blog” would be hard, because rule #1 of “Fight Blog” is, you dont talk about “Fight Blog”.