Last Wednesday I took a more detailed look at heroic tier multi-classing in 4th Edition D&D, which included a fully multi-classed character at 10th level becoming roughly 2/3 primary class and 1/3 secondary class. Quite a lot of discussion surfaced after last week’s post, but one interesting point was made that the power-swap feats feel underpowered because they come a level too late. Many feel that the powerswap feats are bad / gimped / underpowered because you end up trading a 4th level feat for a 3rd level power.
The best way to look at the power-swap feats is in relation to a non-multi-classed character. In the Heroic Tier a character is mostly defined by their primary class, so that when a Wizard hits 6th level and gains the spell Dimension Door this greatly changes how the character functions and is effective within the party. However, if a Fighter multi-classed into Wizard were to get the same spell at 6th level, they would be outshining the Wizard completely. Instead, the power swap feats in the Heroic Tier delay that process, so that a Fighter / Wizard can get Dimension Door but only at 8th level. The elegance of the system is that once you’ve taken the 4th/ 8th/10th level power swap feats you can swap out any power of your secondary class at later levels. This means that a Fighter / Wizard could get the highest level Wizard spells possible at later levels, but not before they obtain the power swap feats.
What this leads us to is the Paragon Tier, where characters are no longer defined by simply their primary class, but by Paragon Paths instead. Each character becomes much more refined and powerful when taking a Paragon Path, which grants specific powers and abilities based on the path chosen. Instead of taking a Paragon Path, a multi-class character may instead choose to continue multi-classing and gain different benefits as a result. At 11th level a multi-classed character, instead of gaining the benefits of a Paragon Path, can trade out one of their at-will powers for an at-will power of their secondary class. This is where multi-classing really crosses the threshold that a lot of players desire when their character becomes nearly 50/50 between two different classes. In addition to swapping out an at-will power, a character can select an encounter power of 7th level or lower from their secondary class, and at 12th level instead of a paragon utility power they can select a 10th level or lower secondary class utility. The same goes for the 20th level Paragon daily power, which results in our character having the following spread of powers:
- 2 at-wills (1 primary class, 1 secondary)
- 4 encounter powers (2 primary, 2 secondary)
- 4 daily powers (2 primary, 2 secondary)
- 5 utility powers (3 primary, 2 secondary)
- 12 feats (with only 4 feats spent on multi-classing)
This gives us an almost entirely 50/50 multi-classed character, with utility powers being the only imbalance with 3 out of 5 in the primary class. Also notice that at later the levels the amount of feats needed to multi-class is far less substantial, only taking up 4 out of 12 total feats. What you should notice now is that the numbers have changed entirely in multi-classing’s favor. In the Heroic tier we were giving up 2/3 of our feats to gain only 1/3 of a secondary class, whereas now we’re only spending 1/3 of our feats for half of a secondary class. This shift has come from the fact that the power swap feats can be used at later levels, which also allows your character to stay at the forefront of whichever class’ powers that you choose.
The only things that seem to be missing in multi-classing are replacements for the 11th level and 16th level Paragon Path features, which might make this a deal breaker for some people. In my opinion, all of the Paragon Path features are a further refinement of a character concept, which is arguably equivalent to the happy synergies that begin to appear with certain combinations in multi-classing. With the rules allowing for a character to get the latest spells of either class, it should be clear that any one class power is less important to a character than it was in the Heroic tier. What this gives me hope for is that in the power supplement books they will add feats for multi-classing which allow a character to gain more of the unique abilities of a class they’re multi-classed into (such as Ranger fighting styles, a warlock’s curse, etc).
A completely separate option is for a character to take a Paragon Path at 11th level which stems from their secondary class, so that a character can be a Fighter / Wizard and then progress in a Wizard Paragon Path. This results in a fairly similar character progression, except a bit more specialized and little bit less of a 50/50 multi-classed character. It looks as if the blending of classes becomes much more universal in the Epic Tier, as one epic destiny lets you choose all of your encounter and daily powers between levels 21 to 30 from whichever class you choose. At this point characters are becoming far more specialized, unique, and multi-classing is less of a commitment. So far there is no choice to give up an Epic Destiny and instead continue to multi-class even further, but I wouldn’t entirely rule that out in the future.
Good text rigth here
I lov multiclass, but im not about power and stuff, cousa i´d like the flavor its get in the game.
I love when someone in my gametable make some weird stuff like rogue/wizard and the like.
But this post will help they a lot, becouse man… my players LOVE power and kick some monster as**
Keep the good work and lots of xp to you all
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The primary builds (and the majority) on Wizards of the Coast and ENWorld message boards for multiclass include taking cross-class Paragon paths instead of going with the 11th level multiclass option. It seems odd that you don’t really address the facts on the ground. Numerous intelligent players have come to the conclusion that 11th level mutliclassing is much less powerful than synergistic cross-class Paragon paths.
So how about this math. For one (1) feat, the initiate feat, I can get access to a cross-class Paragon path and gain a bonus encounter/daily power, AND gain a bonus skill training. Many of the cross-class Paragon paths make more powerful combinations than single class Paragon choices.
OR I can spend four times as many feats (4) to get a half my powers from a secondary class, even then my secondary class powers aren’t quite as good as my class powers. Plus I can choose to multiclass at 11th level which is less powerful than taking a Paragon path at 11th level.
It seems clear that WITHIN 4th edition (no comparisons to 3rd edition) that multiclassing is a worse option beyond the initiate feat.
Wizards of the Coast R&D should improve the non-paragon swapping aspect of multiclassing in 4th Edition.
@ Aaron
“even then my secondary class powers aren’t quite as good as my class powers”
I’m not sure what you mean there – you swap powers from one class for a power of an equal or lesser level (your choice) from the secondary class. To me, swapping a 4th level encounter power for a 4th level encounter power is equality.
Unless you’re talking about how you can’t replace your highest level class power for a multiclass power, which Bartoneus already addressed.
As far as options being ‘more powerful’ or ‘less powerful,’ well, that’s why they’re options. Flavour dictates the path to me, so I don’t mind taking a ‘less powerful’ path if it fits the character.
Also don’t forget that you only get the class abilities from your primary class. Those class abilities are very important for some classes, and less important for others.
E.g. A wizard multiclassing into fighter can’t mark anyone. A fighter multiclassing into wizard can’t use cantrips and lose a moderately helpful encounter ability. Clearly, I think fighter -> wizard is a vastly superior choice than wizard -> fighter.
In fact, I think wizard is just plain the best class to multiclass into, because it’s one least defined by its class abilities. Clerics, walords and paladins all get formidable healing abilities; defenders get their marking abilities; strikers get their bonus damage abilities.
Wizards are far more defined by their powers. Long range, area of effect, zones, etc.
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Aaron: “It seems odd that you don’t really address the facts on the ground.”
These posts were intended to look at multi-classing, not necessarily about how to best use Paragon Paths, so I only touched on the subject lightly.
“OR I can spend four times as many feats (4) to get a half my powers from a secondary class, even then my secondary class powers aren’t quite as good as my class powers. Plus I can choose to multiclass at 11th level which is less powerful than taking a Paragon path at 11th level.”
The first point isn’t true, as JJ pointed out that I addressed it, after the initial delay of getting the feat a multi-classed character can get the highest level powers available to them from either class. Your second point there is not necessarily fact, Paragon paths are good but if you’re multi-classing into Wizard then there are only a select few powers you can gain from the Wizard Paragon Paths, instead with straight-out multi-classing you have more choice of powers that are available to both classes from levels 11 to 20.
I’m not entirely surprised that Paragon Paths are more popular, as I stated in my post I even like them better at this point, but I’m still on the fence as to whether or not one choice is mechanically better.
“It seems clear that WITHIN 4th edition (no comparisons to 3rd edition) that multiclassing is a worse option beyond the initiate feat.”
The build you mention ends up with a character spread like this:
* 2 At-will powers (both primary)
* 4 Encounter powers (3 primary, 1 secondary/paragon)
* 4 Daily powers (3 primary, 1 secondary/paragon)
* 5 Utility powers (4 primary, 1 secondary/paragon)
* 12 feats (1 spent on multi-classing)
That looks like a character that isn’t very multi-classed at all, in fact this character is LESS multi-classed then they would be in the Heroic tier. If you’re talking about making the most powerful character possible, then I can see this being a very viable option, but we’re talking about Multi-classing and not necessarily having the best damage output but providing good synergy and effective balance between class combinations and single-class characters.
I agree with Aaron. “Full-on” multi-classing (or Paragon Multi-classing, as Bartoneus calls it) is not as powerful as taking the initiate feat and then choosing a paragon path that stems from that class. While I don’t advocate upgrading the power of multi-classing in general until more extensive playtesting has occurred (and until the first of the supplements have been released), I think that in the long run the heroic tier power swapping feats will probably need to be improved or supplemented. Unless Wizards wants multi-classing to simply be a disfavored and less powerful choice, which I guess is a legitimate option considering how overpowered some multi-class combos were in 3rd.
Sultan: What is wrong with the power swap feats that they need to be improved? Even if you opt to take a Paragon Path, you can continue to use those feats to get the latest powers from your secondary class.
I still insist that Multi-classing is not as underpowered as everyone says it is.
I’m still of the thought that three heroic level power swap feats aren’t worth it. You expend a feats for a net gain of zero. You don’t gain additional powers (which would be too powerful the other way I think), you just get different flavored ones. Sure, giving a fighter a wizard utility power seems like a cool idea, but he gives up one of his fighter powers to do it *and* burns a feat. IMO, it’s not *that* useful.
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Not all of the multiclass options are useful, but there certainly are some dandies. Tooling a Charisma rogue with a few Warlock powers that create combat advantage at range is definitely a great strategy. Compared to 3.5 there are fewer good options… but 3.5 had a million bajillion splat books and we don’t yet….
Other than the initiate feat that grants you a skill and a power, multi-classing is flat out underpowered at the expense of so-called “diversity”. There are enough difficulties with picking powers from another class (such as weapon/implement bonuses, or even completely different main stats) that make up for your “diversity”. Power swapping is a sideways motion; those feats give you not “forward” gain in power and are thus less powerful than any feat which does gives you a gain.
For paragon multiclassing, you first have to invest in all of the underpowered swap feats. You do however get to choose equivelant powers. Unfortunately, you give up all your features for an 11th level sideways of an at-will. For the cost of all paragon path features, you should gain that at-will in addition–that would be real diversity. It still wouldn’t make up for requiring all the other swap feats. *bleh*
I like the 4th edition multiclassing, but I think most of the time I’ll just get the first feat and another class’ paragon path.
Using four feats now for swapping powers don’t seams that bad, mostly because the PHB feats are not enough, I guess. You’ll miss those feats when the supplements start to get out.
I’m very intrigued by the views on this subject, because one of the biggest complaints levied at 4th Edition so far is the lack of customization of characters – you can’t make a ranged fighter anymore.
What I’m trying to figure out is if the new Multi-class rules are this level of customization, and we just haven’t quite played with them enough yet to figure it out. A fighter can multi-class into Ranger, spend 4 feats, and gain a ton of ranged attacks. I’m still on the fence, but I try to stay optimistic and assume it can work.
The Paragon Path issue is something I’m still looking into, it appears that it’s just going to get worse with the FR player’s guide which has a bunch of new Paths for people to take. Paragon level multi-classing appears to be where it is weakest.
Yea – I have to agree with the others (as I pointed out in the previous topic) – taking 1 feat to gain the multiclass and then possibly taking a synergetic paragon path seems to almost always be more viable/effecient than swapping out feats to gain lower level powers from a 2nd class.
One of the greatest aspects of a Fighter is having Reliable abilities. Why give this up to be able to mark at a distance when you could just be a half elf, dragonborn, or trade 1 more feat to get it. This is an example where a low level AE ability is awesome – the dmg isn’t what makes it awesome, what makes it awesome is that a fighter did AE damage.
And I totally agree with the whole “wizard as a main class” is wasteful. Wizards are highly underpowered, imo.
I’ve mostly stayed out of the discussions on these two posts, but the back and forth has really convinced me: the multiclassing rules can’t be analyzed well on paper. Whether or
not the amount of synergies that are possible is worth it or not is going to depend on a lot of variables, and I think that can only come from a lot of play. (And even then, I’d say more than what takes place in a single campaign.)
However, I think those who think multiclassing in both forms is flat out underpowered are going to see different options in later books, which really is one of the strengths of the multiclassing system. It’s much more modular. I just hope that there isn’t a flat-out “power creep” in the new feats and they’re more nuanced.
Tonester: “Yea – I have to agree with the others (as I pointed out in the previous topic) – taking 1 feat to gain the multiclass and then possibly taking a synergetic paragon path seems to almost always be more viable/effecient than swapping out feats to gain lower level powers from a 2nd class.”
How many times do I have to repeat this? The power swap feats are only trading down the level that you get them, every level after that you can trade for an equal level power. This means after 4th level you can trade any encounter power of ANY level for another of the same level, etc.
The issue I have is that a character with an initiate/student feat and then a paragon path from their secondary class isn’t really that much of a multi-class character, because only 25% of their powers are from a secondary class (and not even that, they’re from a Path of another class).
Also, telling people to just be a Dragonborn or Half-Elf isn’t really fair, because the racial abilities are extremely limited in selection. Plus, they could be a Dragonborn/Half-Elf in ADDITION to multi-classing and just gain even more powers, which really makes those two races stand out.
I agree with TheMainEvent that there are good multiclass options. But I also agree with what is probably the majority of the posters here in the belief that Full-on multiclassing (e.g. “Paragon Multiclassing), on the whole, is not as good as 1) single class + paragon path, NOR 2) single class + initiate feat + alternate paragon path.
I concede that the game is early in its life span. That doesn’t mean that, as of this moment, Full-on multi-classing is somehow not worse than other options – because in my opinion it definitely is.
Another option that no one here has discussed with any thoroughness is Partial Multiclassing. By that I mean taking the initiate/student feat, and then 1 (or maybe 2) power-swap feat(s), but not taking all 3 power-swap feats. Then following that up with a paragon path. This option of ‘Partial Multiclassing’ (as I dub it) seems to me to be a good compromise of power and diversity/versatility. Thoughts?
@OriginalSultan – that is kind of the point I was trying to get to.
@Bartoneus – The Dragonborn/Half Elf was just a specific way to deal with the specific example given early for a Fighter doing AE damage to mark more than 1 enemy. I was merely trying to show that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat without going down an (in my opinion) inefficient path.
@TheGame – I agree. The fact that we can all agree to disagree means that its probably working as intended. More books and options does make synergies more abundant and does make multiclassing more viable, imo.
Stop calling it multiclassing—it’s NONEXISTANT in 4th Edition. It’s “class dipping” now.
The true, real, and best way to multiclass was back in 3rd Edition and that’s been killed.
What 4E offers is not multiclassing, it’s pure rubbish. Like the rest of what it offers.
Razz: I actually find this kind of funny on a post that illustrates how you can make a 50/50 character in 4E.
The term “class dipping” actually makes me think of 3rd Edition, where it was beneficial and even optimal to have a few levels in a bunch of different classes.
You are actually right though, it’s not “multi”-classing really because you are only ever two classes, so it’s really just cross-classing.
I’m working on a house rule to give the power swap feats in heroic tier multi-classing a little more clang for the gold. If interested, take a look here. I’m interested in any feedback folks may have.
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Its funny because I have no resource books but will be playing 4th edition and Im learning how the game works by reading your guy’s stuff.
All I know is this: Multi-classing in 3rd edition could be abused horribly or it could make your character super sucky. The way 4th edition does make its quite interesting consider classes are completely done different to begin with with the whole power at will stuff and the system has been completely remade I saw ‘who cares’? Also humans once again have an advantage as multi classing due to their bonus feat and at will power.
I just remember playing NWN ( which I know is not true 3.0 or 3.5 DnD) and with a cleric/sorcerer I could use divine strength to get attack bonus of a fighter, then true strike to get lots of bonus attack (so I don’t even need any magical equipment) have a bunch of buffs to jack up strength past 18 (which is already 18 due to divine strength) then also have time stop to remove any dodge and dex ac you have and then you the spell harm with is touch based which remove any other bonus ac you get like from armor… essentially making a guarantee hit.
Oh yeah then you could still do the big sorcerer boom spells like Isaac great missile storm and cast the all to useful raise dead and heal spells… while once again still having the attack bonus of a fighter with divine strength (start leveling as a pure sorcerer until lvl 20 so you are never really gimped for getting all your boom blow up spells and when you start taking cleric stuff you get divine strength as a lvl two spell with strength domain Which means your natural rolled stats could have like a sucky 8 in str). Most epic thing I could was walk into a room, raise everyone to life at full health and then leave before anyone even knew I was there (timestop).
Or the infamous taking 1 lvl in shadow dancer to hide in plain sight.
Oh and taking 1 or three monk levels to get wisdom bonus to AC.
Lets just say from what I saw so far (which is not much im a noob and dont know th system at all) 4th edition seems to make multi classing not at first appealing, but can still be done is not super gimped or super rigged and definatelly can’t be abused too much. If it can be abused well kudos to the guy who proved everyone wrong after everyone was griping about how multi classing sucks. Personally I think its more appealing than ever because not all at will powers are based off stats and they are not restricted by what your stats are all the time as much as say needing a high intelligence for high level spells in 3rd edition (Im just guessing here). Instead your stats simply compliment and are the source of what the powers actually accomplish it seems. Rogues + teleporting + turning invisible always kicks butt.