In the convoluted web of intrigue that blogs create, Phil (the Chatty DM) led me to a link via a guest post at Geek’s Dream Girl, to a very cool fan-created Bard class for 4th Edition. Unlike some other fan-created classes for the new edition, this one actually boasts a complete list of powers/’sploits from level 1 to level 30 that is quite impressive. I’m tickled by this having just played my first (and one of the few) successful and long-running Bards in Dave’s game, it’s good to see some of the feel and flavor translated into the new edition. Naturally, this started the old gears a’turning!
We’ve had some very limited peeks at Wizard’s plans for the classes that recently became homeless (not in the PHB), the only bit of note were that the Sorcerer will have a different spell-list than the Wizard and will have a more primal/natural feel to magic – taking on aspects of what they cast such as auras of cold or bursting into flames. Oh and Andy Collins informed Dave and I, when asked if the Monk would be a Martial Striker, that we were “at least half incorrect”. Early indications were that the Druid would be almost entirely focused on Wildshape, but rumors I’ve heard lately indicate the class will be a strong spellcaster also. What has really gone in the wrong direction I feel is the discussions of the Barbarian (not by Wizards, but by fans).
Everything that I’ve read on fan sites have talked about the Barbarian fitting into the role as a Defender, but anyone who has played one should know that this would be completely counter to how the class should function. Sure it could be a new type of Defender, but I’ve played in games where the Barbarian has done more damage to the party than the monsters! It certainly wouldn’t make sense as a leader class, and I can’t see having any fun as a Barbarian sitting there like a rogue or ranger and pecking away at one enemy at a time. So what does that leave us with? The Barbarian could serve to fill a huge gap in 4th Edition’s current design – the fact that there is only one Controller.
I see the Barbarian class as being perfect as a Martial powered Controller, using melee weapons to create burst attacks and taking out multiple enemies at one time. I’ve seen some talk of the class being a hybrid role with controller/striker, but I really imagine Wizards won’t go the route of muddy class roles, at least not early in the game. What do you guys think, does the Barbarian idea fit into the role of a Martial Controller? What kinds of powers / abilities would you want to see them have?
There is some evidence that Wizards IS going to muddy the class roles by featuring hybrids- the last post I saw about Druid development indicating it being a hybrid class.
I suspect that we have the martial classes we’re going to have– I suspect the barbarian is going to tap a different power source. I could easily see him as a nature striker (dishing out big damage with nature’s fury/totems/etc.), which would allow the Druid to be a controller (if they concentrated on Animal/Plant domination, Summon Nature X equivalents, etc.)
Of course, that’s a wild stab in the dark. I just suspect that the subtitle on the PHB implies that the existing PHB is going to be the sole source of Arcane, Divine, and Martial power using classes.
ScottM’s last post: Valedemar: Winds and Storm Trilogies
Furthermore, it’s arguable that even some of the core PHB classes muddy the roles–a Paladin is mostly a defender, but has a bunch of leader-like abilities.
While I have no evidence to back it up, my best guess is that the Druid will be a controller, focusing on weather, plants, summoning animals / swarms, etc. (as ScottM) suggested. They might go the route of splitting the Druid class into 2 distinct classes – the aforementioned weather/plant controller, and a different class focused more on shape-shifting and taking on animal aspects. That second druid class (let’s call it a “Shaper” for now) could be either a defender or a striker.
As for Barbarian, that class doesn’t really seem to fit any mold. I could see them going with a defender Barbarian with damage reduction or regeneration. Its interesting that you mention the controller Barbarian. I guess that class would have lots of whirlwind attack type powers that hit both friendly and enemy units, and/or berserker type powers. I think it could work.
“it’s arguable that even some of the core PHB classes muddy the roles–a Paladin is mostly a defender, but has a bunch of leader-like abilities.”
I definitely agree, they’ve certainly muddied up the roles in the sense that all dragonborn have a little bit of control ability, and Paladins are a defender leaning toward leader, while warlock is a striker that leans toward controller. I hadn’t thought of it in this sense, but when I hear people say a new class will be a hybrid I fear that they’ll stop having one primary role for each class and go towards something like a 50/50, which I think starts to break down the system.
In that case I could see a Barbarian being a striker / controller, but what would be really cool is if the class actually had 4 builds each that fit into a different role maybe then it’d work well. That’d be a lot of overhead for one class though.
The Barbarian could be some bizarre defender that actually generates ‘aggro’ (for lack of a better term) and forces monster’s to attack him more aggressively than the defender marking abilities do. He may not even have a high AC necessarily just an assload of HP.
I mean, this ‘aggro’ theory makes sense when you consider 4E = WoW.
Well, at the moment we have three power sources (Martial, Divine, Arcane) and four roles (Striker, Defender, Leader, Controller). That is 12 possible combinations. Here’s how I think the breakdown/matchup could work, and what I would do if I was designing the PHBII. Classes with a * are already in the game.
Martial Defender: Fighter*
Martial Striker: Rogue*, Ranger*
Martial Leader: Warlord*
Martial Controller: Barbarian (aggro draw, self-healing, close bursts)
Arcane Defender: Psionist (defense through telepathy; doesn’t mark/sticky enemies but gives allies bonus to hit or AC “Look out! I sense he is about to bite you!”)
Arcane Striker: Warlock*
Arcane Leader: Summoner (extra attacks via proxy summons, party buffs)
Arcane Controller: Wizard*
Divine Defender: Paladin*
Divine Striker: Monk (the classic kung fu guy)
Divine Leader: Cleric*
Divine Controller: Druid (plant/swarm area denial)
Ish: I remember reading a list of supposed power sources, I believe Ki power and Psionics were on the list along with Elemental and Shadow? So I think Psion, Monk, etc. will actually be based on completely seperate power sources from the Martial/Arcane/Divine.
Yep; They actually put a sidebar in the PHB explaining just that. I’m just saying how I’d do it. (And Ki sounds a lot like Divine, and Psionic sounds a lot like Arcane, but ymmv.)
I read a few places that its assumed Bard will be Arcane Leader.
Yea the Bard just fits TOO nicely into the Arcane Leader role, so I think that’s pretty much a given.
I could see Ki and Divine being lumped together, but Psionic and Arcane are completely different things to me and I think 4E finally gives us a chance for a Psion that truly feels different (and isn’t insanely overpowered).
Just brainstormming, and as the Ranger and Rogue show there is nothing stopping you from doubling up the roles.
First post. Thanks again Dave for showing up the other day. We had a blast.
I can definitely see the Barbarian being some sort of Martial Controller. However, if that is true, it will be interesting to see how they balance that with the Wizard who will definitely have a lower AC and fewer HP. I see little reason to play a Wizard already and if the Barbarian is a Controller as well, I can see there being even less reason. However, if one of the defining attributes of a Controller is the ability to create wall and cloud effects, I’d like to know how that would be possible for a Barbarian.
The Bard seems like a natural Arcane Leader to me as well. Good call on this one.
Like others pointed out, I can see them adding other sources such as Psionics, Nature, etc. For me personally, I don’t see the Druid really fitting into any of the current sources. I think it would be a shame to shoe-horn the Druid into Divine and I don’t see it fitting into Arcane or Martial at all. I think a Nature source is more appropriate and could lend itself to other classes such as a Shaman, Witch Doctor, Alchemist, or anything to do with animal charming/summoning/shapeshifting.
As for the muddy’ing of the classes, I agree a little bit but not entirely. It seems the foundation for the Defender is the ability to mark (taunt) and strong melee capabilities. I don’t think overlap is avoidable. I mean, anyone with an AE attack could be a Controller, but that would mean Rangers are as well.