A common topic has come up several times throughout various discussions that has been wracking my brain lately. The discussions it has been most prevalent in are ones that pertain to game design, and specifically tabletop games or computer games. About two days ago a reader commented on my post which was mostly ranting about the intricacies of the comparison made between 4th Edition D&D and World of Warcraft. Part of the comment echoes something I’ve heard time and time again from people, usually ones who would rather not make any points and instead just wish the discussion to go away. The part of the comment I’m referring to is:
anyway its imho a bit hard to compare D&D with WoW, one is a Computer and one a P&P game, do you also compare birds to fish?
Let’s start simple here, and as I’ve said many people have used this argument to try and stifle any kind of discussion on the subject: all of them are wrong in their base assumption that when you compare two things they must be similar in numerous ways. This is a closed-minded assumption which limits our capacity for creative thinking. You can , quite easily, compare birds to fish. They are both animals, they have two eyes, they both need oxygen to live, birds do not live in water while fish do. That was a simple comparison of birds and fish, and yet when it comes to a game like D&D people make it sound like you’re killing the Pope by comparing it to a videogame.
The absolutely easiest bottom line of comparison between WoW and D&D is that they are both games, people play them for enjoyment (we assume), and they both are an assumed set of rules in which players work to act as a character other than themselves. Oh, and let’s not forget that they both happen to strongly feature fantasy settings and themes. None of these preclude them being extremely different games, but that does not mean there is no merit in comparing the two. In fact, what Wizards has done is shown us that there is merit in it. World of Warcraft is a game that has grown in the span of 5 years to attract millions and millions of players worldwide. I haven’t seen a comprehensive count of D&D players but it sure as hell seems like Blizzard has been doing some things right. If you can’t acknowledge this than it is that much clearer why you’re not in the game design business. The borrowing back and forth of concepts and design elements is an common occurrence in the gaming industry.
What we should do is look at what can be gained from comparing these very different games. WoW has attracted a lot of players, provides a very refined online computer gaming experience, and has clearly built upon both the tabletop roleplaying game and the MMO computer game templates to refine the inherent ideas into a polished product. Now, you might be saying it doesn’t incorporate anything worth noting from tabletop games. But remember that MMO’s developed from MUD’s, which were like a tabletop game except accomplished via text through the internet. Thus, MMO’s are a derivative of the same source as tabletop RPG’s.
Design ideas such as class balance and player involvement, two of the biggest issues that even WoW struggles with immensely, can be solved in some elegant and interesting ways when it comes to an RPG. What Wizards has done is looked at some of the techniques used in MMOs and adapted those ideas to change how D&D functions. What people are incorrectly focusing on is where the idea has come from, and not the idea itself or how well it functions. People shy away from any comparison between these two because of the immense stigma that comes with MMO’s: they’re impersonal, full of douches, and the gameplay can quickly erode to mind-numbing repetition. None of those features, however, mean that the concept of having a character party made up of specialist characters who each gets to be uniquely successful at what they do and feel useful at the same time is a bad idea.
If you’re still of the mindset that comparing these two games is a travesty, and that even suggesting it makes me a terrible human being, just consider how many great new inventions, innovations, and ground-breaking game ideas have come about because someone decided to combine elements from two very ideas.
Hamburger Earmuffs!
(damn pickle matrix…)
Graham’s last post: Final thoughts after marathon 4e release day events
I always wonder at people who take the most obvious distinction about something and conclude that they must be completely different.
My mantra is always see what comparisons can be made at a general level and then takes a look at what makes two things distinct. If the distinctions are still important then reassess whether the general comparisons are still valid.
I have come to the general conclusion that people are so used to looking at the details of things, that they have trouble stepping back and viewing things from a holistic point of view.
Adrian.
James Wyatt has his own take on the “OMG D&D IS JUST LIKE WOW!!” comments on his blog at Gleemax:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1044100
The bits on top pointing out (humorously) how D&D is actually not much like WOW at all are amusing, but the paragraph at the bottom where he says: “…they’re just examples of things that MMOs have borrowed from D&D and expressed in good ways. No harm in us borrowing them back.” pretty much hits the nail on the head for me. This is actually how the creative process works – when people say “nothing is original” that’s mostly true. Ideas feed on themselves and form new ideas.
Graham: I wonder if I’m the only one who read your comment and knows where it comes from 🙂 Glaven!
Doubtful, but awesome!
Huzzah!
Graham’s last post: Final thoughts after marathon 4e release day events
Frankly I’m a bit glad that D&D 4E has such obvious parallels to WoW and other fantasy videogames, because now I’m pulling in my gamer friends who have never played D&D before and have long quit WoW out of the empty satisfaction that comes with the endgame monotony. D&D is now the “obvious” next step for these guys — the same premise and core structure as WoW, but with the added freedom, choices, and just plain social fun.
3.x couldn’t pull in new gamers so easily, from my experience. There were a lot of times the players wondered, ‘Why are we playing a game with all this extra bookkeeping and busywork? At least in a videogame the computer does all that crap.’ In my first game of 4E, I’ve already had a ton of moments where I could smugly chime in and say, “Can you do that in a videogame?” And that should be the kind of thing that sets D&D and WoW apart. They can’t look like distinctly different games if you don’t start by comparing them in the first place.
Isn’t there a saying that goes, “the good borrow, the great steal”? I’m a computer programmer by trade, and I spend a good portion of my day stealing pieces of code from various sources and then adapting them for my own uses. My colleagues do the same. While not entirely convinced that 4e is good (I’m so firmly on the fence that I have a post set rather uncomfortably…well, I’ll leave it at that).
I’m glad that D&D and WoW ‘borrow’ from each other, and I don’t care who started it. It’s all-around better for gamers everywhere, similar to open source content for programmers. With the general increase in the fantasy genre (thank you Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, to name the biggest), it’s a good time to capitalize on that.
Would Wizards have been smarter to make their monthly fee non-existant, though? It’s easier to compete with the online crowd if you’re significantly cheaper.
Man, I haven’t watched that show in forever…most of my Sunday evenings are spent recovering from D&D…
And yea…Picasso said it…”good artists borrow; great artists steal.”…
It’s why I plan on dealing solely with remaking really crappy movies into good ones…(i.e. Death Curse of Tartu)…
You wrote:
“Design ideas such as class balance and player involvement… can be solved in some elegant and interesting ways when it comes to an RPG… What people are incorrectly focusing on is where the idea has come from, and not the idea itself or how well it functions. … mean that the concept of having a character party made up of specialist characters who each gets to be uniquely successful at what they do and feel useful at the same time is a bad idea.”
I want to say that you are right. People are often too focused on specific examples and cliches, without looking at the underlying ideas.
However, I wonder why everybody is so crazy about “game/class balance”? I wonder how the game is played where this is such a big deal?(Frankly, I know these games and have to say that, to me it is not roleplaying, at least not what I seek in rpgs.) I can’t remember a game of AD&D where anyone was concerned about balance…
Mr. Castle: I previously laid out my case for balance in RPGs, but short answer is that it sucks to have another character completely overshadow you, and/or have to add to the DM’s workload to correct for it.
For what it’s worth, however, there are many that agree with you that balance is not a worthy design goal.
WHOA whoa whoa whoa…
Is that “Krog” as in Emperor Admiral etc. etc., Krog???
Sucilaria’s last post: What a difference a few weeks can make.
What Game said…
Also, folks almost never conciously worry about game balance whilst playing a game unless things get ridiculous…the system is usually constructed in a manner where the balance is inlaid…most of us would rather not have to tie a rock to our sword hilt in order to obtain the proper center of gravity, thus the blacksmith forges our sword proper…
I think it’s best summed up as:
Good balance doesn’t matter.
Poor balance can ruin games.
Graham’s last post: Final thoughts after marathon 4e release day events
“Good balance doesn’t matter.
Poor balance can ruin games.”
Sure, but the last sentence is only true in games, where you have tons of options for your character (like 3.5).
AD&D 1st isn’t balanced, and I never had a problem with balance – each class has its own style and niche, so they don’t get in the way (maybe with the exeptions of the Barbarian, Monk and the Assassin). And that the MU was far more powerful later on – well, he was supposed to be, because of the world you tried to recreate.
But for games with different goals (3.5 with less archtypal approach to the classes (because of multi-classing), a different world (more movie/comic/manga inspired) and more focus on combat that the previous editions) and more class options this is true.
Well, you might not care about balance in your games, but there are plenty of people that do. Exhibit #1 is any D&D messageboard where people complain about broken combos and such.
Along all these lines, interesting article up on Gamasutra today:
“The D&D designers did a good job of taking ideas from video games that help their game work better without overly diluting the unique feel of their game. Hopefully we can prove as competent at returning those influences as they were.”