A little insight into my thought process. The basic concept for this post came to me when I was listening to the D&D Podcast and heard Mike Mearls talk about “skill halos”. Basically, he said that try not to look at the D&D skill list as narrowly defined skill sets but as broad competencies encompassing a lot of tertiary abilities.

One reason I chose Athletics as a primary for weaponsmithing was that the skill description notes that it is used for tasks which require exceptional feats of strength and I would include working at a forge as one tasks.

You are right that in real life that just being athletic doesn’t mean you are a great blacksmith. However, f you look at what is already included in the Athletics skill, it includes distinct skills like climbing, jumping, and swimming. In real life, an olympic pole vaulter may not even be able to swim. A skilled rock climber may be a horrible pole vaulter. Heck, I used to be on the swim team in high school and I know I am a horrible climber and not much of a jumper. In D&D 4E, a character who takes the Athletics skill will automatically be good at all of those skills.

Still, there are ways to modify the system to take those kind of things into account. As @Jeff Greiner and @ChattyDM mentioned, it may be possible to include some secondary skill system to limit what kind of crafting skill challenges are possible.

At its simplest, you could have every player pick a career they had prior to adventuring. This would open up any skill challenges appropriate to their prior career. What if they wanted to pick up blacksmith skills after the fact? Well, you could have them aquire those skills in game by spending time befriending a blacksmith.

You can also modify the skill challenges I made to address some of your concerns. For example, for the crafting of Mountain Plate Armor, I suggested Dwarves get a +2 to all rolls. You can always change this to be more restrictive. Maybe a Dwarf must be involved in the skill challenge. Maybe ONLY dwarves must be involved in the skill challenge.

In conclusion, I guess I would say I think skill challenges are decent way to resolve crafting in D&D 4e. However, my guidelines presented here may require some tweaking to fit your own style of play. Some DM’s may want to dispense with skill challenges entirely in most situations, and only bring them into play if the players are creating something truly epic. Others may want to restrict them with mechanics like secondary skills or even “crafting feats” that open up very specific types of skill challenges for characters who have them.

Or as As @Tim says, the system can be made as simple or as complex as you want it to be.
.-= Rob´s last blog ..I am glad to be wrong about the Githyanki =-.

For instance, said Warplate Mountain Armor (might as well stick with this since it seems to be the running gag of the post). A Dwarf may know how to construct that from tales passed down within the clan, but how might an Eladrin or a Human craft such a racially stereotypical armor? Perhaps add a number of Knowledge checks to the skill challenge in order to properly sift the pertinent information out of all the stories learned of that race, with a number of successes needed per plus of the armor, or maybe a few Diplomacy checks in order to gain a bit of aid from a sympathetic ally, even down to an Insight check or two to see something in the style of construction that helps you figure out the secret of the process.

As someone that has spent a decent amount of time actually physically crafting things (from various shop classes & a continuing desire to tinker with things), it’s always a learning process in making something, even if you’ve made it time & again, ad nauseum. A new idea pops up, you keep at it time & again until you learn all the tricks & such, & you just get better, or someone walks by & makes an observation you just didn’t think of & suddenly you have a Chocolate & Peanut Butter moment. The more you work at it, the more you can work out in the process of it to get better.

It’s all in how you work the skill challenge system, it can be as complex as you want it to be. Also, just because people can make the checks, there’s no guarantee of them actually hitting the difficulties.

One thing however that doesn’t fit in my head when I’ve finished reading your post is this: while I know your skill challenge is way better (both in the logic and the RP-fun of it) than a simple Ritual, there is still something missing.

How in the world a mere eladrin or human could forge a Warplate Mountain Armor +3 at a dwarf forge, only requiring appropriate regeants and skill checks? It does not yet explain how that character “knows” how to do blacksmith work. It’s surely not by his understanding of the nature or his good athletics that he can instinctively craft such an armor.

Compare this to a shallow computer user (i.e. my parents or girlfriend) who sit one day and try to get their hands at programming a software using any language (.Net, C, SQL Querys, etc.). Maybe they can get “something” to be done, but no way they can make a decent software.

Long reply, but I like being clear. Is there a more logical way we could explain how any character can craft a said magic item? So far, I’d only see someone who had, for example, weaponsmith or blacksmith experience that could craft magic weapons and armors, but not other types of magic item. They sure don’t have the knowledge to work wooden material for magic bows, since it’s not the same area.

For the crafting thingy, I’ve noticed in other games that when you casually expand one skill to cover new things you can end up with people who would like to be doing something but couldn’t really find the right place to fill in on their character sheet to do it when they were made. In past editions of D&D or in other games I’d say allow skills that are related but not quite spot-on to do it at a slightly higher difficulty. Maybe even a level check of some sort as a last-ditch catch-all at a suitably high difficulty.

Basically have a backup plan.

@ChattyDM: I haven’t thought about secondary skills in a long time. I will tell you that my wizard was a tanner though. I remember because it was odd enough that I wrote my entire background around that fact

@Thasmodious: I agree that you most of the time I wouldn’t bother making a fletcher roll to make arrows. One reason I kept the system as a series of guideline rather than hard rules is to encourage “common sense”.

@New Zombie: I agree in an ideal world, or is that working with an ideal group, that most of this could be handled through pure roleplay. I know in my group though, a lot of players need a little nudging to roleplay or prefer a little more crunch. I suppose that is the point of skill challenges in general, to add some mechanics to something that could be handled with pure roleplaying.

You will never hear me arguing against pure roleplaying though… I am the type of guy who takes the time to describe what material components my wizard is taking out of his pouch when he casts a spell.
.-= Rob´s last blog ..I posted on ChattyDM today. =-.

I agree, it is thematic for a dwarven adventurer to forge his own weapons, but removal of the craft skills doesn’t prevent the player adding that theme via roleplay. With regard to the creation of the warplate mountain armour, again, role play is where the depth is. I’d much rather hear a player describe the labours of forging steel and using his imagination about the specifics of the ritual than hear the clatter of dice on the table.

Regardless, I enjoyed your post. Thanks.

I don’t set a hard and fast rule about background skills, it just depends on what the player comes up with. But I don’t think a skilled fletcher, for example, need roll something to manage to create some arrows. That’s what a fletcher does, rolling for it seems kind of weird. “Oh you failed to create arrows despite having created thousands in your past.” or “Despite having worked as a professional musician for years, you failed to play a song on that instrument you sleep with that is like an extension of your body”. I think it’s much more interesting for the bard to use Streetwise and insight to get a feel for the crowd and the area, diplomacy to connect with them, bluff to make it seem likes he’s one of them, intimidate to spin a scary tale, etc.

@ChattyDM: I wouldn’t be surprised by that at all.
.-= Bartoneus´s last blog ..Inq. of the Week: Non-RPG Content? =-.

Then I use them in Skill Challenges often, as you’ve noted and more. For forging, for sailing through the storm, and sometimes it comes up as a good addition to other skill challenges. The blacksmith wants to use his knowledge of the weak points in metal work to help his buddy break the bars on the gate? Sounds like a perfect example of a +2 to me.
.-= Jeff Greiner´s last blog ..TSP: One Bad Egg pt 3 =-.