PCs are reluctant to retreat. PCs are really reluctant to retreat if it means leaving one of their own behind. Perhaps if you emphasize smart use of slow/immobilize effects in such an encounter? You could only use 1, maybe 2, “RUN AWAY!” monsters; it would be difficult as hell to simultaneously slow down more than that. You could add more weak monsters that can chase the PCs or slow them down; the PCs would have to kill those off first. That would also take advantage of PCs’ tendency to kill off the weak ones first; all their attacks wouldn’t be devoted solely to realizing “we can’t take this guy” and thus wasted.

Ideas:
-Pair up a tough, low-damage elite they can’t defeat with a weak controller they have to kill to escape.
-A slow-moving bruiser the size of a semi truck works with a ton of fast minions that swarm around the PCs and get in tons of opportunity attacks as they try to retreat. Actions points & area attacks save the day.
-The PCs face off against 4+ equal-level elites along a narrow cliff. The elites don’t have push powers; the PCs do. Expected tactic: push off 2 of them, kill the other two. Bonus points for pushing off all 4 and cutting the encounter short.

What makes them so efficient is that they ALWAYS have a game plan and contingencies. Stiking to the plan is what makes the encounter easy for them.

The secret of challenging players in fight is to use the Encounter design tools (Traps, Hindering/damaging terrain, Monster roles and XP budgets) to build encounters exactly like you would build your own ‘Deck’. You need to go beyond ’2 Soldiers, 1 controler, 2 Artillery’ basics of encounter design and find monsters that mesh together.

The Monster abilities were designed to create combos with other powers. Look for them during encounter design.

Then the next step, much like a Magic game, is to break the party’s game plan. Isolate/Immobilize the Rogue, force defenders to go one on One, keep Artillery away from all PCs, drop the Leader to 0 HP early in the fight, etc.

The goal is not to win vs the PCs… the goal is to destabilize them to break their game plans. Now players feel pressed to find a new plan.

To be visited later in a post!

If the party decides to flee I roll on a custom chart for affects of an overwhelming battle. The results vary wildly from escape, to parley, loss of items, or capture.

The players know the chart and know the modifiers if PCs are already fallen or “dead”.

The added benefit of this is that if an unlucky first hit “kills” a PC I can ret-con due to the chart and not tax the PCs the gold for death but will leave -1 until three milestones death penalty around.

I agree that Surges are the new hitpoints, and hitpoints are more like SDC in the Palladium system. I’ve also never used hitpoints as lifepoints – @ChattyDM’s definition is my preferred one as well.

I’ve had a heck of a time since my Return to Northmoor PCs hit Paragon – I can’t seem to challenge them adequately. I ran a level 15 solo, and it didn’t really even phase them – they are hyper efficient on the Fighter->Cleric teamup, and I bloodied the fighter 5 times in one battle to no avail.

I’m concerned because I’m starting to feel antagonistic.
.-= Tim White´s last blog ..Return to Northmoor Episode 17 – Actual Play of Session 8, Part I =-.

Thanks everybody for reading and commenting, by the way
.-= Wyatt´s last blog ..Wizard’s tells you to roleplay in 4e. =-.

As a DM, I’ve never been one to throw “really powerful” monsters at players because they’ve been steamrolling through encounters just to humble/scare them. I prefer to tweak future encounters by a level or two.

Regarding what HP represents, I was guilty of describing damage as wounds in previous editions. With the advent of Bloodied in 4E, it makes it easier for me to visualize it as just burning stamina, getting tired, feeling the burn. Blood doesn’t start flowing until you fall below that 50% mark.
.-= Kameron´s last blog ..4E Quests for Sunless Citadel =-.

Hmmm…. maybe it could form a Skill Challenge based around Insight (the all purpose Get-A-Clue skill!), Nature/Arcana (depending on the type of monster being faced) and Athletics (to actually be able to run away). Succeed the Challenge and they get away and gain the XP. Fail, and they face combat and potentially XP, but a fair few bruises in the process. I like.

@Wyatt Death saves are when your body is finally shouting out at you HEY! A LITTLE ATTENTION HERE! It’s the point where your physical wounds overtake your ability to produce adrenalin and you’re – basically – screwed without medical attention.

Changing the way you think about Healing Surges mean that Clerics make a lot more sense too in 4e – they’re medics who diagnose and identify the worst wounds (ie, spend a Healing Surge). Which makes ‘em feel….. well, more clericky.

Oh, and we’ve also got Healing Stirges, which are like leeches which suck your blood but heal you up at the same time!
.-= greywulf´s last blog ..Down and out in old dungeon town =-.

its added a new level to the game the players enjoy.
.-= Mike´s last blog ..Minion Mondays: Interrupting Cow =-.

As for explaining things, I’m more a story-based DM for story-based gamers for the most part, so come combat time we all have plenty of ways to explain HP. I tend to ignore Wizard’s use of terminology more than anything.

Yet, when the game uses an expression as graphic as “Bloodied” and I see PCs going from near-death to peek condition within 6 seconds, it’s sometimes becomes a stretch of the mind to explain things. I do like the players do and I just discard the whole thing and focus on trying to defeat the player’s game plan.

As for creating a credible threat, my most successful endeavor (apart from using Beholders) was to set a string of scenes, featuring 3 combats, in one 24 hour period. When Yan said ‘I’m out of Surges’ I knew that things were going to be hairy… (It turned out to be too hairy, but now I know how to properly gauge it now).

Like I said before I for one goes for the obvious hint at the start of the fight.
-Your guts tells you that this is going to be a hard fight. (hard encounter)
-You’ll need to be creative to get through that one. (too hard encounter with twist that makes it feasible)
-etc..

There’s nothing like a whack of the obvious bat of obviousness to get the idea across…

@Greywulf: I’m not fond of having the HP system represent injury, but that is a good way to look at it. What would you rationalize for the death saving throw ticks?
.-= Wyatt´s last blog ..Vehicles of Eden (beta post) =-.

So, your Fighter with 10 or more Healing Surges can effectively take a lot of serious punishment before dropping. A Wizard, considerably less.

Hey, it works for us

And when it comes to throwing critters at them beyond their ability, I say go right ahead. You players need to learn that it’s good to run away once in a while!

.-= greywulf´s last blog ..Down and out in old dungeon town =-.