@BMcS: Good counter points there. You are right that the wizard is actually the easiest class to play as their effects go ‘Boom!’ and it’s done. I didn’t realize that until I used the very same PCs in a game with my son over the weekend.

I also agree that you need to have been playing a certain time to ‘grok’ all the tactical foibles of the game and enjoy it more.

Fair point, but not *quite* what I meant.

Over the years, I’ve noticed that most new players do best in situations they can easily visualize, and that their reactions are usually more focused on the game world than on the rules. I think Jim played out in much the same way – his illusionary sounds, his light spells, Jim’s Magic MIssile. I think the flavor text next to all the powers in 4e helped with this a lot.

Jim Darkmagic kicked serious butt mostly at the game-world stuff. I find that that’s the stuff new players are best at under any ruleset – probably because its the easiest stuff to relate to. Wizards have made kind of an interesting turnaround in 4e. They are no longer one of the hardest classes to play well – I would almost mark them as one of the easiest. Except for the swapping-out-dailies thing, virtually all of their abilities fall within the scope of their powers, which for the most part have pretty obvious and easy-to-visualize effects.

The mistakes my new players made tended towards the more abstract, mechanical side of things: The marks, the saving throws, the hunters’ quarries. They involved the things without a obvious game-world effect. In a really ironic turnaround, the ones who seem to be having the most serious problems are actually the fighters and the paladins – They just didn’t realize how crucial it was to mark their foes, or exactly how it worked. Describing it as “calling an opponent out” helped a little, but even that didn’t really impress on them that they should be doing it as much as possible.

The problem is largely resolved with my current batch of players, who have now been playing for almost a year, but its still stewing in the back of my head – Sooner or later, I’ll have to teach another player how it works.

It’s true, 4e has a lot of resource management. Actually, that’s part of the reason I took the feat “Shield the Fallen”: although it affects positioning, it consumes no resources.

Where I think we get into trouble is with bonuses and conditions that we are at least 50% likely to forget without great diligence and what I think is best described as “nagging”. As a player (and a woman, ha) I’m not entirely comfortable playing “little voice in the ear” for the other players in my group.

So, big thanks to dar for his suggestion about handing out cards for the effects. I think that could help quite a bit.

@Anarkeith: Hey, since I have a 6 year old daughter I DO have a on of them colored bands! Hmm, so many good ideas!

@Noumenon: I have made that choice, as much as I can manage it. When a thread explodes or when it become self sustained, I let it go.

It is your choice, you know. If you’re committed to a conversation with every one of your commenters, that’s cool, but you don’t have to.

I love the idea of handout cards for the bonuses you provide to other players!

If I know that Player X has used Power Y that does Effect Z, and I’ve read his sheet, I can keep track of what that power is doing and what it entails for the fight. If I feel something’s wrong, I can remind everyone of, for example, things like the Warlord’s bonuses to action point use, or the Cleric’s wisdom to healing powers.
.-= Wyatt´s last blog ..Might of Eden: Fabled Scoundrel =-.

@BMcS: I’m not quite sure I agree with you as you can see how Mike (a Wow player who’s never touched a tabletop RPG) gets the game faster than the other two players. What he manages to do with the various cantrips is sensational.

That being said, were I to introduce new players to D&D I would likely use Red Box basic D&D (or the 1991 Rules Compendium) and then upgrade to 4e once the player showed interest in the game. Not because I think 4e is better (I do, personnal choice) but because it’s the game I currently play.

@Yan: I totally agree, It’s not for anything that you guys have been facing encounters 2-3 levels higher than your level for the last few sessions. You guys are the D&D equivalent of a fine-tuned Magic the Gathering deck. I think that when we go to Pax 2010, we should sign on for an Ultimate Delve event.

@Dar: Thanks for the kudos! Great ideas for the situational bonuses. Don’t tempt me into some kind of new crazy project, I’ve got enough as it is.

I also want the stickers.

About the situational bonuses that you give to folks, print out extra cards for them and hand them out to your fellow players or the DM.

This is a great post, I can’t wait for the DM one.

I was thinking that a podcast that did something like this, played a session then discussed what went on in the session, would be a great idea.

This is where 4e shine as it provides the DM with all the tool to be able to give an appropriate challenge to is player, which is not that easy in other system.

Your players do not yet get how the classes works or how to work as a team, give them mostly encounter of their level. They’ve reached an high level of efficiency give them mostly encounter of 2 level above them. The later will level up faster but they have proven to be able to assimilate the new power while the first group will progress slowly giving them more time to assimilate their classes power…

Wizards wants to draw the World of Warcraft crowd, which is all well and good – those guys have been familiar with heals, tanking, DPS, crowd control, and (de)buffs for years. But when someone who’s new to RPGs tries to play just about any character other than a striker, they don’t generally understand how to perform their role without a lot of coaching. I’ve got two fairly new players running paladins in my current game. We’ve been playing for ten sessions or so now, and one of them only *just* figured out how marking enemies works as part of the team. The other player still hasn’t quite got it yet. The only reason it hasn’t impacted party play is because there’s a more experienced, MMO-savvy player running a barbarian, who fills in the gap. Even some of the guys who have been playing for ten years are having trouble wrapping their heads around the fact that wizards aren’t the best damage blasters anymore.

The system is just too complicated to use as a gateway into RPGs. It’s really unfortunate, because its the best-known game around, and almost exclusively the game everyone who joins the hobby is introduced to. A good DM or a more experienced player can help the situation by explaining things a little, but there’s just no reason to start new people on something this complicated.

I actually kind of regret teaching my girlfriend to play with 4e instead of a more freeform game – It would be a lot easier for her rogue to find something useful to do. As it is, she’s one of the most clever players in the party out of combat, but as soon as combat starts she mostly just takes tactical advice from the barbarian.

Truthfully, I think all of the little temporary, conditional bonuses are the “worst” thing about 4e. Conceptually great, but they turn 4e into an adventure in bookkeeping. I’m sure it will work a lot better in a CRPG…

@Bryan: Those are indeed rad stickers and would make great Penny Arcade Merch!

@yoyorobbo: I really really like the colored paperclip idea, I’ve got tons of those colored buggers gathering dust in my office desk drawer. I’ll try to use them tomorrow. Thanks!

However, I am finding great usefulness from various colored paperclips, bent into triangles and used to hang on minis with status effects, etc.

I basically had to do this with a level 11 Gnome Illusionist/Wizard. He dishes out lots of debuffs and status changes, and it was getting too crazy tracking them. The paperclips worked wonders for me in this regard. They can hang on any mini we’ve been using.

Numerous folks have suggested the paperclips, as well as hair-ties, pipe-cleaners, twist-ties, etc. All great ideas – none of them were mine…ha!

BTW, great post here Chatty. I like you analysis of the podcasts. All of them were hilarious recordings and great inspiration too, making commuting to work a D&D experience in itself.
.-= yoyorobbo´s last blog ..B4 – The Lost City boxer shorts?!?!? =-.

http://twitpic.com/6g93z

I hoping they will release them to the rest of us…
.-= Bryan Blumklotz´s last blog ..STEP AWAY from that bottle! =-.

And the Rudy the Undead Dog bit totally slayed me. This is the crap I would pull in a game session where the DM failed to rein in our geekyness.

@Asmor: By the time the second podcast came around, Jerry had made PCs for all three original characters with the Character Builder. Apparently it didn’t help them remember to mark opponents or that Turn Undead also immobilizes undead for 1 turn.

Oh and about that OCD/pedantry thing… you can bite me dear friend, I invoke the ‘English as a second language’ clause I’ll correct as soon as I get a computer with an actual mouse.

@Michael Philips: It really shows he’s really into it. I would love to play with him one day.

@Sian: The Avenger was probably not in the Char builder, the second pod cast started in March.