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That’s why I was so blown away with the Rule of Cool as I had found the one way of dodging pedantic nitpicking of the details of my adventures as if I could create a an encounter that was cool enough to wow the players, everyone stopped challenging the little details I didn’t have time (or didn’t want to spend the time) getting perfectly right.

{/pedantry}

But obsidian was listed as a semi-precious stone in the 1e DMG worth 10gp. I recall calculating the value of those huge doors at 6,000,000gp. And in those days we gave xp for treasure

I remember this quite clearly because I independently came up with the idea of nicking the doors and selling them. Amazing how so many people also came to the same conclusion without the benefit of the internet to spread the idea!

However, maybe here we were at fault for not taking the naturalistic approach to its full conclusion – if someone tried that on me now as a DM I would say that flooding the market with that much obsidian would grossly devalue it as a semi-precious stone. Never thought of that at the time, though, as my 15-year-old brain had a pretty shaky grasp of economics.

Lurkinggherkins last blog post..The Trap

flashhearts last blog post..eh?

(A memorable example in the Hall of the Fire Giant king (G3) when the party nicked the solid adamantite doors to the dungeon and sold them..)

It is useful to use magic, unknowable mystery or just irrational/insane npcs to allow you to set up not-sensible things in adventures, (The tomb of horrors did it beautifully – Acereak the Lich testing the players for his own amusement) but it wears thin if you do it too much.

Setting up realistic situations leads to very different role playing experience. The Paladins have to deal with what happens to the orc tribes dependents now you have killed all the males… an interesting morality issue.

Not-realistic dungeons are only ok if everyone agrees to what to expect, otherwise some players will clearly be upset to find the random encounter table has placed 6 cloud giants in a 10′x10′ room with no exits..

Traps should have their own posts (as Gherkin did today). Suffice it to say that I prefer traps in D&D 4e than the average ones I played in 3e. Tommi’s point is very valid. Traps definitively can be used as non-gotcha obstacles that can make the dungeon feel more like a Indiana Jones scenario (Skeletons Impaled on Rusted spears are a fine example).

Thanks for the discussions people!

So, the DMs description has some relevance to how the players solve the trap. But often, the situation the DM envisaged, which was so clear to him/her, fails dismally on description, and the clear hint at a solution which the DM was putting in just doesn’t work, so the players screw up or give up as often as they succeed.

This happens a lot. That’s why skill checks were invented, I think – to mediate between the human failing of the DM (can’t quite describe things perfectly) and the players (too stupid and drunk to understand anything).

flashhearts last blog post..Documents on the Unfortunate Lapse of Discipline

A very similar moment happened in a game I was playing in a long time ago. My friends and I pissed off the DM so much he killed us all. It was a game of Paranoia so you could say it make sense to kill all the PCs if you want, but if you do that out of pure anger it’s not the same thing!

Anyway, I think we all agree that the big problem probably not is the lack of interaction with the trap, but traps as breaking the suspenders of disbelief. I understand why someone would use a skill system for traps, but it’s one situation where I think the invention was a bad idea.

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The Trap

Enjoy!

Lurkinggherkins last blog post..The Trap

“You enter the room and fail to see the trap the ceiling falls on you, your all dead.”

Yan: I don’t see the point of gotcha-traps, or roll-dice-to-solve-traps. Maybe some do enjoy them.

That said, puzzle traps, as you call them, do not fit every game.

flashheart: We would the GM have a particular solution in mind? Where’s the fun in that?

I’m not being sarcastic btw. It’s just that I never “hope” for a puzzle, a trap or any other plot device to work a way or the other. Success or failure of the PC attempt to solve anything is always a “success” for me the DM.

My goal is to create a world for the PCs to evolve in, I’m not aiming for a precise result. The more unpredictable the better …

Maybe I’m just missing your point.

That’s why I’m asking!

I’m pretty sure this is why game designers invented the skill check – so they could add a layer of abstraction to a process which, when negotiated directly between dm and players, fell flat on its face as often as it worked.

And there is always the dual-approach to traps, where the trap is disarmed by a skill check but a good idea from the player improves the chances of the check succeeding. No reason for either-ors.

flashhearts last blog post..Documents on the Unfortunate Lapse of Discipline

Puzzles are interactive since they will as you said include every one, dumb trap with search and disarm roll are not. So we could agree that to make a trap interesting it should be turn as a puzzle instead of looking for the gotcha effect.

I personnally would not use a trap if it doesnt make sense that it’s there.

There’s many “natural” way to implement traps in the environment. You only need to have reason for it. Creature, humanoid, monster, etc could set a trap for food, for protection, to capture an enemy… If I create a dungeon, a traps could protect the entrance of it. I could use it to protect the lair of a creature “xyz”. A trap for the sake of having one in the middle of an hallway is … let’s say weird to me.

So, GM describes how there’s this crumbled body in front of the door that blocks the corridor. Someone tells that they are check if there are any holes in floor, walls and roof. And indeed such exist, in the roof. Now the players brainstorm how they should pass this obstacle; maybe by blocking the holes, maybe crushing the door from afar and running past the trap. Maybe by finding what triggers it.

I fail to see how this would not be interactive, or how someone being a rogue makes everyone else irrelevant.

Personally, I don’t place traps without a reason, and my players know what sorts of environment to expect them in, so they don’t go ‘full paranoia’ all the time. When they do encounter a trap once in a while, some of them actually seem to like it (except maybe the sucker who falls for it…) – ‘Yay, traps, so retro!’.

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