Comments on: The Defense of Laser Clerics and Infinite Wizards http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/ The Journal of Gamer Culture Sat, 11 Feb 2012 17:53:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ashamel http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63389 Ashamel Tue, 26 May 2009 08:06:09 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63389 I have to agree with Stephen... 4e does have an uncanny MMORPG feel about it, and that's been a big turn-off for me. It has merit, and I hope it does quite well for those who use that for their D&D experience. But I feel 3.5 still does it best for me. Granted, there are some wickedly over-powered classes/prestige classes, but that comes from WotC having to continually release new products to stay afloat. I feel that 4e falls under the same category (to an extent) in that it is geared to try and pull gamers they lost/never had from MMORPGs to the tabletop. While I don't like the outcome, I can't argue against bringing more gamers to the fold. Too many people have let the 3.5/4e 'conflict' get too personal and each side bitterly defends their version, but I think it's all about gaming, whether it's 3.5 or 4, we should all have fun in the ways we can. You can like 4e and I can like 3.5 and neither one of us would be wrong. Btw, Clerics are definitely the most OP out of the 3.5 PHB... I have to agree with Stephen… 4e does have an uncanny MMORPG feel about it, and that’s been a big turn-off for me. It has merit, and I hope it does quite well for those who use that for their D&D experience.

But I feel 3.5 still does it best for me. Granted, there are some wickedly over-powered classes/prestige classes, but that comes from WotC having to continually release new products to stay afloat. I feel that 4e falls under the same category (to an extent) in that it is geared to try and pull gamers they lost/never had from MMORPGs to the tabletop. While I don’t like the outcome, I can’t argue against bringing more gamers to the fold.

Too many people have let the 3.5/4e ‘conflict’ get too personal and each side bitterly defends their version, but I think it’s all about gaming, whether it’s 3.5 or 4, we should all have fun in the ways we can. You can like 4e and I can like 3.5 and neither one of us would be wrong.

Btw, Clerics are definitely the most OP out of the 3.5 PHB…

]]> By: Bartoneus http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63388 Bartoneus Mon, 22 Sep 2008 00:39:45 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63388 Well, he did say "the exploit system is the only enjoyable aspect of 4e" but then said the power system is too much like a videogame. This is a contradiction, so until that's clarified there's not really much point in arguing anyway. Well, he did say “the exploit system is the only enjoyable aspect of 4e” but then said the power system is too much like a videogame. This is a contradiction, so until that’s clarified there’s not really much point in arguing anyway.

]]> By: The Game http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63387 The Game Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:28:51 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63387 While I'm always tempted to argue with drive-by rants such as these, aside from editing out one offensive line that I won't stand for, I think I can sum it up by saying that I'd rather play with "the masses" than these "serious Dnd geeks." While I’m always tempted to argue with drive-by rants such as these, aside from editing out one offensive line that I won’t stand for, I think I can sum it up by saying that I’d rather play with “the masses” than these “serious Dnd geeks.”

]]> By: Stephen http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63386 Stephen Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:16:26 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63386 Ok, while I have to agree that yes, 4e turns the wizard from a limited bookworm into a fully-fledged arcane arsenal, the exploit system is the only enjoyable aspect of 4e. The oversimplified skill system, the lack of in-depth character creation, and the COMPLETE revamp of the system is more than a little letdown for serious Dnd geeks. It's good for marketing, no doubt, as it resembles nothing so much as a pen-and-paper replica of EVERY MMORPG IN EXISTENCE!! <em>(Leave out the false insults when you clearly don't know what you're talking about --Ed)</em> The intricacies of character building, widely adjustable rules, and Universe-spanning set of skills, feats and spells are all gone, replaced by a set of 'Powers' that look like something from a videogame! The whole POINT of Dnd was that it ISN'T a generic videogame RPG, and now that is gone. Just goes to show how shortening attention spans and the Internet, as fun as it is, have reduced the intelligence of the masses to something 4e appeals to. sorry for the rant, but still, the prosecution rests. Ok, while I have to agree that yes, 4e turns the wizard from a limited bookworm into a fully-fledged arcane arsenal, the exploit system is the only enjoyable aspect of 4e. The oversimplified skill system, the lack of in-depth character creation, and the COMPLETE revamp of the system is more than a little letdown for serious Dnd geeks. It’s good for marketing, no doubt, as it resembles nothing so much as a pen-and-paper replica of EVERY MMORPG IN EXISTENCE!! (Leave out the false insults when you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about –Ed)

The intricacies of character building, widely adjustable rules, and Universe-spanning set of skills, feats and spells are all gone, replaced by a set of ‘Powers’ that look like something from a videogame! The whole POINT of Dnd was that it ISN’T a generic videogame RPG, and now that is gone. Just goes to show how shortening attention spans and the Internet, as fun as it is, have reduced the intelligence of the masses to something 4e appeals to.

sorry for the rant, but still, the prosecution rests.

]]> By: joshx0rfz http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63385 joshx0rfz Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:33:13 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63385 I need to play the pervert character from Family Guy as a mage. Mage hand ass grab ftw. joshx0rfz's last post: <a href="http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/08/26/review-braid/" rel="nofollow">Review: Braid</a> I need to play the pervert character from Family Guy as a mage. Mage hand ass grab ftw.

joshx0rfz’s last post: Review: Braid

]]> By: TheMainEvent http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63384 TheMainEvent Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:51:53 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63384 @Sultan: Good call on the Fatespinners! I had forgotten how cheesy they could be with their huge penalty power ("spin") + forced reroll in the miraculous even of a save. @Sultan: Good call on the Fatespinners! I had forgotten how cheesy they could be with their huge penalty power (“spin”) + forced reroll in the miraculous even of a save.

]]> By: OriginalSultan http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63383 OriginalSultan Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:09:04 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63383 One of the coolest things about Wizards in the new edition are the freebie powers. Thus, you can repeatedly mage-hand someone just for the heck of it. One of the coolest things about Wizards in the new edition are the freebie powers. Thus, you can repeatedly mage-hand someone just for the heck of it.

]]> By: OriginalSultan http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63382 OriginalSultan Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:16:52 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63382 Broken Class Award: 2.0 Wizards, hands down 3.0 Clerics, Verdant Lords 3.5 Clerics, Fatespinners 4.0 ? Any I missed? Broken Class Award:

2.0 Wizards, hands down
3.0 Clerics, Verdant Lords
3.5 Clerics, Fatespinners
4.0 ?

Any I missed?

]]> By: TheMainEvent http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63381 TheMainEvent Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:55:03 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63381 Broken Class Award: 2.0 - Wizards 3.0 - Clerics 3.5 - Clerics 4.0 - ???? 5.0 - Profit! Broken Class Award:

2.0 – Wizards
3.0 – Clerics
3.5 – Clerics
4.0 – ????
5.0 – Profit!

]]> By: Reverend Mike http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63380 Reverend Mike Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:18:20 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63380 Bah...maybe I'm naive and inexperienced, but I have never seen a 3/3.5 wizard capable of killing any of my beloved melee-focused creations... Not to mention my black, cycloptic 9-year old...that kid is the harbinger of death at Lv. 15... Reverend Mike's last post: <a href="http://bookofrev.blogspot.com/2008/08/flash-friday-zombie-cancer-ker-ploweee.html" rel="nofollow">Flash Friday: ZOMBIE CANCER! KER-PLOWEEE!!!</a> Bah…maybe I’m naive and inexperienced, but I have never seen a 3/3.5 wizard capable of killing any of my beloved melee-focused creations…

Not to mention my black, cycloptic 9-year old…that kid is the harbinger of death at Lv. 15…

Reverend Mike’s last post: Flash Friday: ZOMBIE CANCER! KER-PLOWEEE!!!

]]> By: TheMainEvent http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63379 TheMainEvent Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:43:17 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63379 Yeah, its one of the best things evar on teh intranets: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerLevels?from=Main.OverNineThousand Yeah, its one of the best things evar on teh intranets: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerLevels?from=Main.OverNineThousand

]]> By: Bartoneus http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63378 Bartoneus Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:15:08 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63378 I think that's a DBZ joke? :P I think that’s a DBZ joke? :P

]]> By: The Bored Gamer http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63377 The Bored Gamer Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:25:26 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63377 I only have one comment for this thread... OVER NINE THOUSAND?!!!!!?!! *CRUSHES SCANNER* I only have one comment for this thread…

OVER NINE THOUSAND?!!!!!?!! *CRUSHES SCANNER*

]]> By: Asmor http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63376 Asmor Fri, 22 Aug 2008 04:47:28 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63376 Gargoyles was 90s. Asmor's last post: <a href="http://www.encounteraday.com/2008/08/20/friends-foes-voidwalkers/" rel="nofollow">Friends & Foes: Voidwalkers</a> Gargoyles was 90s.

Asmor’s last post: Friends & Foes: Voidwalkers

]]> By: The_Gun_Nut http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63375 The_Gun_Nut Fri, 22 Aug 2008 03:58:58 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63375 With respect to Rev. Mike, while wizards are pretty badass, and fun, to play in 4E, they are greatly toned down from the previous edition. While a wizard didn't have access to an unlimited set of powers, at the same time a high level (not low or mid level) wizard didn't NEED all that extra flash. A single spell or two, or a sick combination of 3 or more lower ones cast previously, would ensure the wizard nearly always (90%+) win whatever conflict he was currently embroiled in. Against other spellcasting types (druid, cleric, etc.) the playing field was fairly even, but against the non-casters there was little hope of winning anything but a sneak attack on the caster (and that was iffy, too). However, in 4E the difference in power levels between the classes is dramatically smaller, and each class contributes something meaningful. Within his purview (controlling and damaging mass numbers of foes) the wizard is king. Other classes may get some ability to deal with numbers of opponents, but nothing like the wizard. At the same time, other classes are far better suited to dealing with a single enemy (ranger, rogue, warlock, and even the fighter) than the wizard. This is just fine, as it enhances gameplay. The new edition is definately cinematic in nature, and little alterations (such as what was mentioned above about AC and thievery) fit extremely well with the new zeitgeist of 4E. With respect to Rev. Mike, while wizards are pretty badass, and fun, to play in 4E, they are greatly toned down from the previous edition. While a wizard didn’t have access to an unlimited set of powers, at the same time a high level (not low or mid level) wizard didn’t NEED all that extra flash. A single spell or two, or a sick combination of 3 or more lower ones cast previously, would ensure the wizard nearly always (90%+) win whatever conflict he was currently embroiled in. Against other spellcasting types (druid, cleric, etc.) the playing field was fairly even, but against the non-casters there was little hope of winning anything but a sneak attack on the caster (and that was iffy, too).

However, in 4E the difference in power levels between the classes is dramatically smaller, and each class contributes something meaningful. Within his purview (controlling and damaging mass numbers of foes) the wizard is king. Other classes may get some ability to deal with numbers of opponents, but nothing like the wizard. At the same time, other classes are far better suited to dealing with a single enemy (ranger, rogue, warlock, and even the fighter) than the wizard. This is just fine, as it enhances gameplay.

The new edition is definately cinematic in nature, and little alterations (such as what was mentioned above about AC and thievery) fit extremely well with the new zeitgeist of 4E.

]]> By: Berin Kinsman http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63374 Berin Kinsman Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:53:01 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63374 "When the DM attacks my Wizard and misses, I describe how I used a quick magic shield to deflect it. (After all, I get my Int bonus to AC, there are many ways to interpret that.) When I use my Theivery skill, I don’t get out the lock picks, I’m channeling magic through my wand to deactivate the lock. (And if it’s a really complex lock, it may require a ritual, but it’s still the same principle, just different mechanics.)" And that, sir, is exactly what I find appealing about 4e. “When the DM attacks my Wizard and misses, I describe how I used a quick magic shield to deflect it. (After all, I get my Int bonus to AC, there are many ways to interpret that.) When I use my Theivery skill, I don’t get out the lock picks, I’m channeling magic through my wand to deactivate the lock. (And if it’s a really complex lock, it may require a ritual, but it’s still the same principle, just different mechanics.)”

And that, sir, is exactly what I find appealing about 4e.

]]> By: Jonathan http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63373 Jonathan Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:41:07 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63373 Wow.. /agree the idea is "full of win". Seems like recasting and 'shemping' of both fluff and crunch is all the buzz in the rpg blogosphere this week (that and McCain foolishness). Maybe we should start a Fluff'N Crunch Recasting meme? heh... definitely using your recasting idea at my game table. Wow.. /agree the idea is “full of win”. Seems like recasting and ‘shemping’ of both fluff and crunch is all the buzz in the rpg blogosphere this week (that and McCain foolishness). Maybe we should start a Fluff’N Crunch Recasting meme? heh… definitely using your recasting idea at my game table.

]]> By: Sal M http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63372 Sal M Fri, 22 Aug 2008 00:02:30 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63372 I think this idea is full of win, and am going to steal it for my newly starting 43 campaign :) I think this idea is full of win, and am going to steal it for my newly starting 43 campaign :)

]]> By: the_blunderbuss http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63371 the_blunderbuss Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:12:45 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63371 I had always shared similar concerns about the most magical classes in the previous incarnations of D&D. The wizards were the ones that I could (sort of) believe in, and that's just because when I played one I only memorized what I thought my character would consider "essential things I need to avoid something big and nasty" and then memorized other spells during the day dictated by the character needs. ... It was either that or the fact that I'm a Roger Zelazny's fanboy and if Merlin has to memorize spells I can justify any wizard that does so too. Clerics were a tad iffy. The issue is exactly the same one you point out, but with a twist. Why the heck does the cleric need to memorize things at all or pray for specific boons during breakfast? I mean really, can't you just pray to your god for whatever is it that you need? Maybe gods are a busy bunch and keep a tight schedule... maybe they don't give out too much power because they need some to run their godly Xboxes or Playstations. Who knows? The ideas you threw around to add depth to your game are very nice although I feel they run into a specific problem with D&D. Since the game has the mechanics right in front of your nose the whole time... it's easy to start looking at those things as, well, fluff (as in things that are, in the end, irrelevant.) the_blunderbuss's last post: <a href="http://dropthedice.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/rooting-for-shiny-disco-balls/" rel="nofollow">Rooting for Shiny Disco Balls!</a> I had always shared similar concerns about the most magical classes in the previous incarnations of D&D. The wizards were the ones that I could (sort of) believe in, and that’s just because when I played one I only memorized what I thought my character would consider “essential things I need to avoid something big and nasty” and then memorized other spells during the day dictated by the character needs.

…

It was either that or the fact that I’m a Roger Zelazny’s fanboy and if Merlin has to memorize spells I can justify any wizard that does so too.

Clerics were a tad iffy. The issue is exactly the same one you point out, but with a twist. Why the heck does the cleric need to memorize things at all or pray for specific boons during breakfast? I mean really, can’t you just pray to your god for whatever is it that you need? Maybe gods are a busy bunch and keep a tight schedule… maybe they don’t give out too much power because they need some to run their godly Xboxes or Playstations. Who knows?

The ideas you threw around to add depth to your game are very nice although I feel they run into a specific problem with D&D. Since the game has the mechanics right in front of your nose the whole time… it’s easy to start looking at those things as, well, fluff (as in things that are, in the end, irrelevant.)

the_blunderbuss’s last post: Rooting for Shiny Disco Balls!

]]> By: Reverend Mike http://critical-hits.com/2008/08/21/the-defense-of-laser-clerics-and-infinite-wizards/#comment-63370 Reverend Mike Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:31:08 +0000 http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=1993#comment-63370 Wizards are indeed a lot more badass than they used to be... I'm just aching to give the Warlock a try... Reverend Mike's last post: <a href="http://bookofrev.blogspot.com/2008/08/history-of-word-nerd.html" rel="nofollow">History of the Word: Nerd</a> Wizards are indeed a lot more badass than they used to be…

I’m just aching to give the Warlock a try…

Reverend Mike’s last post: History of the Word: Nerd

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