To that effect, I’m happy to see that you created your own amalgam of rules and options that, I hope, leads to the highest level of fun in your group.

It works for me so far.

Everything else goes back to my first sentence. You can’t argue if everyone around the table agrees about what constitutes a fun game. When that’s not there, players magically vanish and DMs run out of ideas and everyone plays Rockband instead

no. yes. if you stat it they will kill it.
Basically, think of how town guards work- they are supposed to reflect the spirit of the city. in a chaotic city, could they all be “bought” into protecting people more? in an evil city, who really runs them? Wouldn’t they want a LOT of Minions and then one or 2 leads per 8 or so to just mob people down?

I break mine down as per skill. Lvl 1=Club, then crossbow. they grow a bit more as PC’s are getting stronger so that 4th lev= swords, and archers, then mages, and then commanders and specialists. once you pass their level, they become Minions of that level- so they CAN still peg you for law and rule breaking. If they NEED to. If the Mages of the city pull them back because they run a mysterious conclave with HUGE power?

See, Fun is in the eye of the beholder. And those things kill you. PC’s in my games know that the house rules include skill tests, and a few throwback to 3 and 3.5 where it needs clarification to a rules heavy system. But 4th just GIVES people things. It’s the theory of people getting rewards for just showing up. So, we change some of the GENERAL rules to specific player/ game world rules. It stops some lawyering and makes players feel like they’ve EARNED stuff. We use a Social Status thing (basically the half level thing plus some points for missions and things you do for them- it’s rep grinding, but if you cover the MECHANICS in the game, it’s all good).

I think the depth they took out DOES make things easier, but that means that in order to keep it a high par game, the DM has a LOT of work to do to make it their own. I batter and beat my players. one of them that has fairly good defences and hit points manages to get hit HARD just by the dice rolling. They barely survive, and are terrified of dying because Ressurections are NOT as prolific as in normal 4e.

BUT they come back. Wether it’s to find out where one of the other thieves they couldn’t catch went, or to kill that jerk who just maimed them, or to just go drinking a lot in the bars, they want what they’ve EARNED, not just what they can be given.

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Unless ‘fun’ for the DM is mercilessly slaying PCs…

Chatty said: That being said, I concede that our perception of the role of the DM may differ… But if you don’t think a DM’s job is to make the game fun for your group (fun being defined by common accord within each group, NOT by shining players’ ego to a buff without a hefty effort on thier part) then we sit in opposite sides of the DM slide.

Not at all. Of course it the DM’s job to run a game that he and his player’s enjoy. I just do not think it is the be all and end all that the game should sqaurely cater to whatever the player’s want, without fair consideration to the fellow who takes the time and effort to run a game so others have a good time. The “fun” should be reciprocal.

Having played Red Box, AD&D (extensively), 3e and read/tried 4e I stand by what I said based on my feelings of the time and what I see now.

I agree that they are vastly different beasts, albeit with common roots… While 4e has been touted as ‘old-school like’ by some (including me) I discover that they remain vastly differ about many things… Competence as granted by rules is one of them.

That being said, I concede that our perception of the role of the DM may differ… But if you don’t think a DM’s job is to make the game fun for your group (fun being defined by common accord within each group, NOT by shining players’ ego to a buff without a hefty effort on thier part) then we sit in opposite sides of the DM slide.

Then again, I seriously doubt we are that different, except in our personal definition of fun.

I’m cool with that and I’d love to read a contrarian view and compare notes.

You said: @John Drake: Would you care to expand a bit on this? Where and how do you disagree? This here site has been, up until your comment, built on respectful arguments and lively discussions.

OK, for one thing I was not being particularly negative, as you ended your blog with the question of whether or not the reader thought you were full of it or not. I thought the former. Sorry if it upset you or if you did not expect to receive a non supportive response. I admit it was brief and (upon reflection) terse, so I apologise. I then had to leave for work. C’est la vie.

So to expand: the spot light has always been on PC’s ever since OD&D. A new edition is not going to fix that or change it for that matter. The DM should not be relegated to being some crazy entertainer, just to buff the egos of players.

Comparing D&D 4e to AD&D … you said:->(Nowhere is it more evident than seeing 1st level 4e characters perform feats of stealth, athletics and acrobatics that would put an AD&D level 6 Thief-Acrobat to shame.)<–

IMHO, I think is ridiculous. Nothing against 4e ( as I do think it is a good game) but it is not the same style of game AD&D was. Nor is AD&D at all like 4e. It is like trying to compare the 2008 Red Wings players with the Canadiens of ’54. A different style of game play in a different time.

So it was really your comparisons of two distinctly different era’s of game design and game play that bugged me.

…More beneficial, if the government’s goal is to keep the city as safe as possible. If the government’s run by a control freak who can’t stand independent operatives, he might not care about wiping out 2 or 3 towns while trying to break the heroes.

Concerning town guards being Lvl. 3: remember, it’s easy to increase a monster by up to 5 levels, so the elite troops could be Lvl. 8 guards, with a mage or cleric tossed in. That would be a challenge even for low-Paragon PCs if they attack en masse.

4E handwaves a lot of the rituals used to summon creatures, making it easy for GMs to have NPCs use them without players arguing details. Major cities could have ritual scrolls for summoning crack teams of eladrin. Or calling down angels. Or animating golems.

For major protection, take a tip from the MM and have a Godforged Colossus as the secret guardian of the city. Imagine the Statue of Liberty coming to life and smacking around hooligans.

The police don’t have the ability to take down Batman 1-on-1, but a gang of them could stand a shot. Even that couldn’t take down Superman.

But they don’t need to. Batman and Superman rarely need to be “taken down”. If something goes wrong, Batman talks to the mayor, says “Yeah, sorry about that. I should have used my Batarang.” and goes on his way.

Because it’s far more beneficial to the city to let Batman and Superman destroy some property occasionally than to spend the resources required to get them off the streets, and no longer fighting bad guys.

In a “Good” campaign I run, the PCs will be given a decent amount of freedom to screw up, since the general population couldn’t do what they do. If they start to actively terrorise the town, they will be dealt with. But if they merely cause the tavern to burn down while fighting off the armies of orcs, they still fought off the armies of orcs.

If they’re not a threat, then there’s no “big stick” you can bring down if the PCs decide to start breaking laws in town. On the other hand, is it really fun to have badass town guards everywhere that can shut the PCs down when they honestly slip up? Is there a disconnect between using badass guards in one scenario and mook guards in the other?

Hmmmm…

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Poison would be nice, but I’m afraid the cost of even cheap poisons would get more prohibitive than the above magic items, and you’ll have to field huge teams of crossbow men to apply it.
The cheapest Str injury poison is Medium Spider Venom at 150 gp/shot. Assuming an AC of only 30, even with 50 gp/person for true strike potions, 1st level warriors will miss 45% of their shots. The save is dc14, so pretty much fail on a one for a 15th level fighter. Damage is 1d4 str. With 20 hits, there is only about a 65% chance of 1 success. That is approximately 37 crossbow men. 7,400 gp on special equipment, not to mention almost 7 times as much manpower as the initial assault, most of whom could well die if anything goes wrong. This of course assumes that you only need to do the 1-4 str damage supplied by 34 people and that a 65 percent success rate is sufficient. You are going to need backup squads. (If rogue adventurers are a serious problem, it might be worth investing in permanent magic items that do these things.
I guess the city could raise spiders. They still need a poison specialist on retainer to prep the weapons squads though.

I think the PCs won’t be able to ignore the city guard as long as they’re in the heroic tier. After that, of course, it’s a whole ‘nother story.

- Brian

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In the Monster Manual a Human Guard is a level 3 soldier. So that pair of human guard aren’t such a challenge to a level 1 party… (Altough they can be nasty with a Halbard)

Yup, definitively too long in the fridge.

That’s plenty for casters, and couple it with a couple rays of exhaustion for most non-casters (total 20-25 str penalty).

For fighter-types, if that isn’t enough, just pelt them with some strength poison until they fall (taking 20 in reverse, essentially they are bound to roll a 1), or hit them with lots of will save spells. Hold Person and Charm Person are cheap enough.

But no, if Ray of Enfeeblement worked that way, no wizard PC would ever, ever prepare anything but RoE, Quickened RoE, Empowered RoE, and Maximised RoE. In every spell slot, up to level 9 (Quickened Empowered Maximised RoE (with Arcane Thesis))

Have we seen stats for city guards yet? If PCs are getting TPKed by kobolds, and those city guards are keeping the kobolds out, it stands to reason that the guards ain’t exactly pushovers.

Or maybe I just spend too much time at my fridge.

- Brian

Brians last blog post..Wrestling with Skill Challenges

As for the Tyranny of Fun argument out there. I’m starting to learn not to sweat it. As someone who apparently loves both the new and old school pretty equally, I’ve learned to start tuning in to all of the positive words that are being sent out for both sides.