Diane Brunners last blog post..Dungeon Siege: In The Nameof the King Review and Thoughts

My current group is mostly Skeptical about 4e, AND 3.5e, The answer I got about “what do you think about 3.5?” And the reply was “You get to powerful to fast, in our game we have to EARN our power.”
I still see no logic in that statement.

Power is DM controlled people.
/emote Shrug

Though I have hopes for some of the other players doing 4e, They even showed me their 4e PHB with a few bookmarks in it.

although its gonna be a 70′ish investment at most at start. (PHB, DMG, MM1) I like knowing my game. though Hopefully I can avoid becoming a horrible Rule lawyer.

-Casts Spell check.

Michael Phillipss last blog post..Dialogues

Ah, well…my most remembered characters were medium-size or ibixians anyway…

You just can’t please some people, you know?

Michael Phillipss last blog post..Firefoxing

A forum is (as the word means in greek) a public place, for more impersonal.

Some strongly supported forums have a great community. EnWorld and Okay…Youir turn to name just two… but the moderator’s presence are strongly felt.

I think we’re seeing the same problems and explaining them from different angles

@Heather: Glad you had fun despite the glitches! Didn’t know you were on a quest to become a DM. Hope you’ll share with us when it happens!

@Chatty: Yes indeed, this place is extremely friendly! I greatly enjoy the conversations around here. I’ve only recently begun to interact with bloggers and was amazed at how different the culture is compared to message boards. I think there’s a sense that people are closer, somehow. Forums feel more impersonal to me in comparison. This is what prompted me to start a gaming blog. I feel there is more mutuality and a greater investment with this medium.

their cardinal sin was to not take the concerns of players at the table in consideration.

Agreed. But this wasn’t their only cardinal sin.

I think we can sum up the problem that myself and others like this.

We don’t care that they used house rules.

We’re pissed off that they never told the players they were using house rules, instead attempting to pass off said rules as part of the core game.

Because of this, if one of their players was incredibly turned off by one of their house rules (the XP one, as a big one), they might never look at D&D again, because of the “stupid rules” it has.

We also don’t care if they messed up rules. This isn’t a problem, and we all do so with a new system. But these are not mistakes. They are purposeful additions or changes, yet are not explained as such.

So, sure, use house rules. But a release game should be as straight as possible. And all house rules need to be explained to the players as such.

“Are they within their rights to impose their vision of the the game like that be it at a convention or with their buddies?”

Very much so. They’re as much within their rights to introduce house rules as you are to walk away. I’d say that it being a demo makes it both irresponsible and rude to use house rules, but I guarantee you they wholeheartedly believed they were improving the experience by “fixing” the game’s “flaws.”

“How do you deal with them when they are your DMs?”

It depends on where I’m at. If it’s at a convention and they’re a stranger, I’ll have fun and then leave. If the acts are so egregious that fun is impossible, I’ll make an excuse and leave. In both cases, I’ll probably want to berate them, but it’s not only pointless, it’s counterproductive. Wailing on someone is a sure way to make them think you’re the dumbass, and get them even more firmly set in the idea that they’re right and “some people just don’t have a clue.” You’ll make yourself feel happier, but you give up the opportunity to state your case rationally and hope it sinks in.

If they’re a friend, I’ll have fun. Even if the game sucks, I’m still hanging out with friends. Then, when an opportunity presents itself, I’ll offer to run a game and hopefully get a chance to show them my brand of “how it should be done.”.

“How do you deal with them when you hear them boast about thier ‘realistic’ house rules in game shops?”

The same way I deal with boasting jocks, accountants, and Star Wars fans: ignore it. They’re already convinced they’re right or they wouldn’t be preaching about their greatness in public. No amount of arguing is going to change their minds, and it’ll waste precious time that could be browsing for anew book.

I tend to try to use Houserules to increase the fun… Or to make things challenging when they should be challenging… The best example of that last bit, for me, is making tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity an opposed check. It’s kind of silly that once you have a +15 in Tumble, you just make half moves and never need to worry about it again, no matter how good your opponent is. My players like it because it gives them a reason to roll again.

I think house rules have their place, but they need to be discussed before they’re implemented.

I have been doing this for 10 months now and I’m still amazed how low the jerk factor and how civil we keep things around here…

Things do get heated up and I do have my rantish days, but then I see the stupidities that others type on slashdot and other high volume and that makes me sigh in relief.

You. All. Rock!

Free clones for all!

The Rule of Fun is so strong that the game takes shortcut that is making some purist scream, the (lack of an) economy and magic item identification to name a few.

I DID have issue with the XP thing. I thought the way they were handling it was stupid. I still think the way they handled it is stupid. I did actually ask why they were doing that and got some cocknbull story that I just let go because it was a single scenario and the XP really didn’t matter anyway.

The point in my posts are more to sort out the rules, DM styles, and general experience with Fumbles and Bumbles for myself as a learning tool in my own quest to become a DM.

Heathers last blog post..Nemesis

I feel I need to backtrack because I have muddied the water a little bit by rambling. So please forgive me if I recap my thoughts, because I feel strongly about this issue.

I don’t dispute that the DMs may have had poor taste, or an agenda, or anything of this sort. And I think there is merit in discussing why they houseruled and if they should houserule.

But I still feel, reading Heather’s first post, that their cardinal sin was to not take the concerns of players at the table in consideration. The fact that at least one player (Heather) expressed concerns and that she was ignored is what I see as the main problem.

Why do I focus on that? Because I believe that a DM that disregards his/her players as individuals will ruin the fun, no matter how skilled he is at the rest of his craft. I’d rather bet my money on a DM who has his players’ best interests in mind and is struggling with the art of DMing.

In this case, it appears (I wasn’t there and can only guess based on what is described) that these DMs were both disregarding the rules and the people. I think the latter is much more depressing than the former and that the two don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand.

Does that make more sense?

“Can a DM be expected to run 4e “straight” on such short notice without the game slowing to a crawl?” To a pretty large degree, yes. While the “defenses” may have been a bit confusing, but the fact that they’re “10 + something” gives the impression, to most experienced DMs, that it represents a target number. Also, even in 3.x, there are almost no “Roll below this number” unless it’s expressed as a percentage (side note: my d100 is going to be sadly neglected in 4e ). The fact that they’re called “Defenses” should also be a key indicator, as the word “saving throw” has been removed from their description (and moved to another use). I could potentially forgive the DMs for this one if they had the players rolling “Saving Throws” to end effects against their defenses.

Most of the rules are pretty straight forward, and with the exception of creature abilities, is very similar to 3.x where it’s not the same. Skill DCs were laid out in the adventure, with skill names, and skills are arguably the largest change to 4e (excepting, as I said, abilities) (at least from a DMs perspective).

I actually use fumbles in my 3.x campaign, but mostly because my players expect something. I do it a little differently, though… If they (or any creature) roll a 1, they make a DC 15 reflex save or attract an attack of opportunity from any adjacent opponent… It keeps things lively, without throwing things way out of whack. (I stole that from some website… If anyone wants to claim credit for it, go for it. I just don’t remember where I got it from.)