Comments on: Playing 4e: Game Day recap and DMing 4e Musings http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/ The Journal of Gamer Culture Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:43:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Scott’s Corner » Blog Archive » 4e Month One: Links n Stuff organized http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50166 Scott’s Corner » Blog Archive » 4e Month One: Links n Stuff organized Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:29:17 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50166 [...] Play Chatty DM: initial thoughts, Into the Shadowhaunt (spoilers!) Fred Hicks enjoys it. Rob Donoghue preps 4e: 1, 2, 3, and Plays. Keep on the [...] [...] Play Chatty DM: initial thoughts, Into the Shadowhaunt (spoilers!) Fred Hicks enjoys it. Rob Donoghue preps 4e: 1, 2, 3, and Plays. Keep on the [...]

]]> By: Questing GM http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50165 Questing GM Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:34:24 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50165 Going to run this soon. Questing GMs last blog post..<a href="http://questinggm.blogspot.com/2008/06/worldwide-dungeons-dragons-game-day.html" rel="nofollow">Worldwide Dungeons & Dragons Game Day</a> Going to run this soon.

Questing GMs last blog post..Worldwide Dungeons & Dragons Game Day

]]> By: shadow145 http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50164 shadow145 Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:46:48 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50164 I played the adventure on Saturday and had a blast, despite our party doing about everything wrong. The DM was particularly Evil, but I think he enjoyed torturing us rather than killing our PC's outright. Funny about the oil. I tried to get Holy Water, the DM gave us a healing potion instead. We worked out the riddle, but the DM did give us a lot of pointers so we would get through it faster. I think he just wanted to speed things along. Unfortunately our wizard shot the spirit, which set him off to attacking us. Well attacking the wizard anyway. My cleric turned him and that got rid of him, but that just set us off for worse trouble later. In the second encounter I personnaly jumped on the sarcophogus and set off the trap. Nasty nasty. And fun. The spirit showed up again, but we didn't attack it and it wouldn't answer us. Then it vanished. I'm not sure what was going on there. We then set off the Necromancer and he released the Statues, then the spirit showed up to help them out. Again, nasty nasty fun. We barely survived, my cleric was unconscious but stable, but before going down he had used all his healing surges he could, all of his healing powers, his second wind, his daily power, and his action points. We ended the adventure when we finally knocked out the villains, but we failed to save the kids. Actually, the Necromancer killed one, and the other we left screaming to be buried alive as we fled the Crypt. Well, they fled the crypt, my PC was unconcious. A comment on the cleric. To take advantage of his powers you have to go into melee. But I found that when I did that I took so much damage I ended up using that healing on myself and not my allies. Just a comment, I think I needed to know a little more about the other PC's powers to play tactically and avoid that problem. The system seems fun. I will play again, but it isn't my game of choice yet, and I don't plan on running anything. But if I was going to run a new campaign for my current group, I probably would use 4E. It fits our kick-in-the-door style of play well. Verdict: Good system, but it's just another system of many. I played the adventure on Saturday and had a blast, despite our party doing about everything wrong. The DM was particularly Evil, but I think he enjoyed torturing us rather than killing our PC’s outright.

Funny about the oil. I tried to get Holy Water, the DM gave us a healing potion instead.

We worked out the riddle, but the DM did give us a lot of pointers so we would get through it faster. I think he just wanted to speed things along. Unfortunately our wizard shot the spirit, which set him off to attacking us. Well attacking the wizard anyway. My cleric turned him and that got rid of him, but that just set us off for worse trouble later.

In the second encounter I personnaly jumped on the sarcophogus and set off the trap. Nasty nasty. And fun.

The spirit showed up again, but we didn’t attack it and it wouldn’t answer us. Then it vanished. I’m not sure what was going on there.

We then set off the Necromancer and he released the Statues, then the spirit showed up to help them out. Again, nasty nasty fun. We barely survived, my cleric was unconscious but stable, but before going down he had used all his healing surges he could, all of his healing powers, his second wind, his daily power, and his action points.

We ended the adventure when we finally knocked out the villains, but we failed to save the kids. Actually, the Necromancer killed one, and the other we left screaming to be buried alive as we fled the Crypt. Well, they fled the crypt, my PC was unconcious.

A comment on the cleric. To take advantage of his powers you have to go into melee. But I found that when I did that I took so much damage I ended up using that healing on myself and not my allies. Just a comment, I think I needed to know a little more about the other PC’s powers to play tactically and avoid that problem.

The system seems fun. I will play again, but it isn’t my game of choice yet, and I don’t plan on running anything. But if I was going to run a new campaign for my current group, I probably would use 4E. It fits our kick-in-the-door style of play well.

Verdict: Good system, but it’s just another system of many.

]]> By: Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Reactions http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50163 Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Reactions Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:11:31 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50163 [...] http://chattydm.net/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/ [...] [...] http://chattydm.net/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/ [...]

]]> By: Felonius http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50162 Felonius Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:39:36 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50162 @Chatty: I think the "Fridge Logic" question from your post (about the "puzzle", and resetting it) could have any number of (and by "any number of", I mean "at least three") answers, none of which require a huge stretch... First, there's obviously some way to open the passage from the other side, and presumably some way to close it. ("obviously" because the module says that the hobgoblins will open the passage if the players seem to be taking too long) Second, there's the enslaved spirit. I don't think "Insubstantial" things are quite so incapable of moving around things as they were in 3.x, so it's certainly possible that the spirit is left behind to reset the puzzle. Third, there's the BBEG's other entrance, which he could certainly use as his normal in & out, and he could the just leave the puzzle in an unsolved state. My players had a pretty high level of luck for most of the adventure. There was only way player close enough to get hit with a sarcophagus, and the hobgoblins immediately retreated to their back position. Two players made it over the second one before anyone fell in, and the Wizard used his Icy Terrain to cancel out the fire for the remaining members. They also (luckily) dealt with the last two rooms one at a time by throwing hobgoblin bodies into the circle and setting off the statues early (The theory was that it was a weight based thing, trying to pull the "Indiana Jones Bag of Sand Trick"). @Chatty: I think the “Fridge Logic” question from your post (about the “puzzle”, and resetting it) could have any number of (and by “any number of”, I mean “at least three”) answers, none of which require a huge stretch…

First, there’s obviously some way to open the passage from the other side, and presumably some way to close it. (“obviously” because the module says that the hobgoblins will open the passage if the players seem to be taking too long)

Second, there’s the enslaved spirit. I don’t think “Insubstantial” things are quite so incapable of moving around things as they were in 3.x, so it’s certainly possible that the spirit is left behind to reset the puzzle.

Third, there’s the BBEG’s other entrance, which he could certainly use as his normal in & out, and he could the just leave the puzzle in an unsolved state.

My players had a pretty high level of luck for most of the adventure. There was only way player close enough to get hit with a sarcophagus, and the hobgoblins immediately retreated to their back position. Two players made it over the second one before anyone fell in, and the Wizard used his Icy Terrain to cancel out the fire for the remaining members.

They also (luckily) dealt with the last two rooms one at a time by throwing hobgoblin bodies into the circle and setting off the statues early (The theory was that it was a weight based thing, trying to pull the “Indiana Jones Bag of Sand Trick”).

]]> By: ChattyDM http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50161 ChattyDM Mon, 09 Jun 2008 09:47:31 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50161 @Deadshot: I did grab one extra kit of minis, but it was already promised to a good friend of mine. Don't worry I have some other goddies coming your way over the summer. @Diane: Welcome to the blog! Thanks for the nice words. Do borrow away! I'm happy to help! @Questing DM: Welcome to the blog! You are from Borneo (I had a peek at your blog)? So cool! I can't believe how global this little exercise in prosaic geekery has become! Thanks for the Kudos. @Heather: I made your questions my 'post du jour', I hope others will chime in to add more their perspective to my answers and add more questions. @Consonant Dude: No problem man, maybe next time... I see that there is a big gaming convention brewing in Montreal in October... maybe we should do a Montreal/Quebec Get together then! @Deadshot: I did grab one extra kit of minis, but it was already promised to a good friend of mine. Don’t worry I have some other goddies coming your way over the summer.

@Diane: Welcome to the blog! Thanks for the nice words. Do borrow away! I’m happy to help!

@Questing DM: Welcome to the blog! You are from Borneo (I had a peek at your blog)? So cool! I can’t believe how global this little exercise in prosaic geekery has become! Thanks for the Kudos.

@Heather: I made your questions my ‘post du jour’, I hope others will chime in to add more their perspective to my answers and add more questions.

@Consonant Dude: No problem man, maybe next time… I see that there is a big gaming convention brewing in Montreal in October… maybe we should do a Montreal/Quebec Get together then!

]]> By: Consonant Dude http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50160 Consonant Dude Mon, 09 Jun 2008 08:13:18 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50160 Hey Chatty! Sorry, couldn't make it to the Donjon to meet you. Will email you soon :) @Heather: I couldn't respond on your blog because it only lets Blogspot users respond or something but here's the answer to one of your questions: First aid has three uses. One of which is "use second wind, DC 10 task. You basically give the person you aid a second wind, which essentially means a healing surge. It is a standard action. Other uses of the healing skill have different DCs. Hey Chatty!

Sorry, couldn’t make it to the Donjon to meet you. Will email you soon :)

@Heather: I couldn’t respond on your blog because it only lets Blogspot users respond or something but here’s the answer to one of your questions:

First aid has three uses. One of which is “use second wind, DC 10 task. You basically give the person you aid a second wind, which essentially means a healing surge. It is a standard action. Other uses of the healing skill have different DCs.

]]> By: Summer is here! (summer 08 preview and the links) - Dungeon Mastering - Dungeons and Dragons blog - DM tips, D&D books, RPG fun http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50159 Summer is here! (summer 08 preview and the links) - Dungeon Mastering - Dungeons and Dragons blog - DM tips, D&D books, RPG fun Mon, 09 Jun 2008 05:12:45 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50159 [...] Chatty’s 4e musings [...] [...] Chatty’s 4e musings [...]

]]> By: Heather http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50158 Heather Mon, 09 Jun 2008 04:53:41 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50158 Chatty - when you get time, I have a few questions for you and/or the guys. I was confused about some things. I'm posting them on my blog. Thanks! Heathers last blog post..<a href="http://thethingstheystillcarry.blogspot.com/2008/06/d-nerdery-questions.html" rel="nofollow">D&D Nerdery - Questions</a> Chatty – when you get time, I have a few questions for you and/or the guys. I was confused about some things. I’m posting them on my blog. Thanks!

Heathers last blog post..D&D Nerdery – Questions

]]> By: Questing GM http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50157 Questing GM Mon, 09 Jun 2008 03:30:45 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50157 It's great to see a full rundown of the Gameday. We're not fortunate enough to have our FLGS running Game day here so it only makes the yearning even stronger. Thanks for the writeup. Questing GMs last blog post..<a href="http://questinggm.blogspot.com/2008/06/worldwide-dungeons-dragons-game-day.html" rel="nofollow">Worldwide Dungeons & Dragons Game Day</a> It’s great to see a full rundown of the Gameday. We’re not fortunate enough to have our FLGS running Game day here so it only makes the yearning even stronger.

Thanks for the writeup.

Questing GMs last blog post..Worldwide Dungeons & Dragons Game Day

]]> By: Diane Brunner http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50156 Diane Brunner Mon, 09 Jun 2008 02:34:40 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50156 Thanks for the blog and reaction. I used part of this on my blog page. It helps to read different reviews to decide if I want to test out 4e myself. Diane Brunners last blog post..<a href="http://her-sca-blog.com/2008/06/dungeons-and-dragons-4th-edition-launch-game-day/" rel="nofollow">Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Launch - Game Day</a> Thanks for the blog and reaction. I used part of this on my blog page. It helps to read different reviews to decide if I want to test out 4e myself.

Diane Brunners last blog post..Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Launch – Game Day

]]> By: Deadshot http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50155 Deadshot Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:26:22 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50155 Sounds like you had a good time, CDM. I didn't get out to Game Day due to other commitments but we did make our own characters on Friday night. There was some incredulous moments as people freaked out about things missing but in the end everyone agreed that we are probably giving this a harder time than we would if it wasn't called D&D. We'll give the rest of Shadowfell to sell us on the system and I'll do some heavy reading of the DMG to try to get more into the spirit of 4e. I do have to admit that I have a hard time with your so-called Fridge Moments. Heavy massaging of my frontal lobe to get past some of those things for us. If you managed to grab some extra kits why not have a contest to give those of us who couldn't run yesterday a shot at them? ;) Deadshots last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/DemolitionInk/~3/303405366/" rel="nofollow">4e - One Player’s View</a> Sounds like you had a good time, CDM. I didn’t get out to Game Day due to other commitments but we did make our own characters on Friday night. There was some incredulous moments as people freaked out about things missing but in the end everyone agreed that we are probably giving this a harder time than we would if it wasn’t called D&D. We’ll give the rest of Shadowfell to sell us on the system and I’ll do some heavy reading of the DMG to try to get more into the spirit of 4e. I do have to admit that I have a hard time with your so-called Fridge Moments. Heavy massaging of my frontal lobe to get past some of those things for us.

If you managed to grab some extra kits why not have a contest to give those of us who couldn’t run yesterday a shot at them? ;)

Deadshots last blog post..4e – One Player’s View

]]> By: Heather http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50154 Heather Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:44:05 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50154 We kicked the dragon's butt! He only had about 30 hit points left when we decided to have the rogue try to talk him into fleeing. :D We could have taken him - everyone was up. We had more trouble in shadowhaunt thanks to couple characters who were too nosey for their own good. Heathers last blog post..<a href="http://thethingstheystillcarry.blogspot.com/2008/06/dimble-bumblepants.html" rel="nofollow">Dimble Bumblepants</a> We kicked the dragon’s butt! He only had about 30 hit points left when we decided to have the rogue try to talk him into fleeing. :D We could have taken him – everyone was up. We had more trouble in shadowhaunt thanks to couple characters who were too nosey for their own good.

Heathers last blog post..Dimble Bumblepants

]]> By: ChattyDM http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50153 ChattyDM Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:04:42 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50153 @Sean: Welcome on the Blog. Thanks for the kudos. I actually think that this edition, especially with the tips given in the DMG, will make it accessible to inexperienced DMs and still lots of fun for all. @Micheal Philips: I too landed an insane amount of Swag... mostly because the store got 12 game day kits and only 6 games were run! @Dave: I'm so going to play the dragon fight this summer! @Mike: None did, as we are all French and we had no heraldry background... so I gave the left one for free. I didn't try to translate the riddle as all players were fluent enough in English to get it (as most RPGers are). LOL @ immediate breath weapon... this is what 4e will be... surprise powers! @Sean: Welcome on the Blog. Thanks for the kudos. I actually think that this edition, especially with the tips given in the DMG, will make it accessible to inexperienced DMs and still lots of fun for all.

@Micheal Philips: I too landed an insane amount of Swag… mostly because the store got 12 game day kits and only 6 games were run!

@Dave: I’m so going to play the dragon fight this summer!

@Mike: None did, as we are all French and we had no heraldry background… so I gave the left one for free. I didn’t try to translate the riddle as all players were fluent enough in English to get it (as most RPGers are).

LOL @ immediate breath weapon… this is what 4e will be… surprise powers!

]]> By: Mike http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50152 Mike Sun, 08 Jun 2008 15:41:00 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50152 Hey Chatty, did any of your players get the "sinister" reference before the hint? I DMed at a local Barnes and Noble and one of my players go it, and one other player at another table did as well. The dragon fight was brutal but fun. The immediate breath weapon from the dragon was just NOT cool. Mikes last blog post..<a href="http://kingofthenerds.wordpress.com/2008/06/07/a-different-singularity/" rel="nofollow">A different singularity</a> Hey Chatty, did any of your players get the “sinister” reference before the hint?

I DMed at a local Barnes and Noble and one of my players go it, and one other player at another table did as well.

The dragon fight was brutal but fun. The immediate breath weapon from the dragon was just NOT cool.

Mikes last blog post..A different singularity

]]> By: Dave T. Game http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50151 Dave T. Game Sun, 08 Jun 2008 15:28:31 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50151 I agree with you that the Necromancer wasn't much of a big bad, but that he was more there to give the players plenty of ideas of how to do interesting stuff. In our group, it was the Wizard's time to shine (teleport up there, Thunderwave him off the pedestal onto a skeleton... all the while the DM hammed it up having the Necromancer curse and scream.) I played the human fighter, and so the dwarf fighter formed up to my side so that we each had one statue to block against. I unleashed my daily power on my statue, and then the dwarf fighter... also unleashed her daily power on my statue. It dropped pretty soon after that, and then by that point the whole party was able to focus their fire on the same statue. I let the dwarf keep marking it because she was hard to knock over, which ended up being pretty important. We did get to fight the white dragon. That was a fight where we really weren't sure if we were going to win (things looking especially grim when our cleric dropped... which then looked a lot better after he rolled a 20 on his death save.) I was a bit concerned when the battle got log-jammed in a choke point, with no one having any real reason to move (which happened in every single battle in 3.5) but that portion didn't last long enough to be that concerned. Good stuff, definitely my favorite of the preview modules so far. Dave T. Games last blog post..<a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/CriticalHits/~3/307016996/" rel="nofollow">The new age has begun…</a> I agree with you that the Necromancer wasn’t much of a big bad, but that he was more there to give the players plenty of ideas of how to do interesting stuff. In our group, it was the Wizard’s time to shine (teleport up there, Thunderwave him off the pedestal onto a skeleton… all the while the DM hammed it up having the Necromancer curse and scream.) I played the human fighter, and so the dwarf fighter formed up to my side so that we each had one statue to block against. I unleashed my daily power on my statue, and then the dwarf fighter… also unleashed her daily power on my statue. It dropped pretty soon after that, and then by that point the whole party was able to focus their fire on the same statue. I let the dwarf keep marking it because she was hard to knock over, which ended up being pretty important.

We did get to fight the white dragon. That was a fight where we really weren’t sure if we were going to win (things looking especially grim when our cleric dropped… which then looked a lot better after he rolled a 20 on his death save.) I was a bit concerned when the battle got log-jammed in a choke point, with no one having any real reason to move (which happened in every single battle in 3.5) but that portion didn’t last long enough to be that concerned. Good stuff, definitely my favorite of the preview modules so far.

Dave T. Games last blog post..The new age has begun…

]]> By: Michael Phillips http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50150 Michael Phillips Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:59:32 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50150 sadly I didn't get there early enough to take part in any of the games, but I did get some nice schwag. I ended up with most of the DM's kit (minus the stapled packet and the cardboard box) and all but one of the PC minis (the repaint of the cleric of pelor) as well as some left over bits and pieces from earlier game days and similar events (the find of the day was probably the pair of grey horse minis. They are at least as useful as the dragon. I had been using a hippogriff mini to represent character mounts previously (well that, the earth elemental, and the valenar rider mini, depending on who needed one) Michael Phillipss last blog post..<a href="http://roninkakuhito.blogspot.com/2008/06/firefoxing.html" rel="nofollow">Firefoxing</a> sadly I didn’t get there early enough to take part in any of the games, but I did get some nice schwag. I ended up with most of the DM’s kit (minus the stapled packet and the cardboard box) and all but one of the PC minis (the repaint of the cleric of pelor) as well as some left over bits and pieces from earlier game days and similar events (the find of the day was probably the pair of grey horse minis. They are at least as useful as the dragon. I had been using a hippogriff mini to represent character mounts previously (well that, the earth elemental, and the valenar rider mini, depending on who needed one)

Michael Phillipss last blog post..Firefoxing

]]> By: Sean Brady http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50149 Sean Brady Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:50:13 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50149 Thanks for the write up. I am anxiously awaiting my shipment from Amazon (which didn't do a great job of handling pre-orders). You describe a game that sounds quite playable, and certainly a lot of fun in the hands of a skiled DM. Thanks for the write up. I am anxiously awaiting my shipment from Amazon (which didn’t do a great job of handling pre-orders). You describe a game that sounds quite playable, and certainly a lot of fun in the hands of a skiled DM.

]]> By: ChattyDM http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50148 ChattyDM Sun, 08 Jun 2008 12:51:38 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50148 They were flat on the ground with a fragile cover... and you could topple them (like toppling a horizontal freezer) to empty their content and the lantern on the floor. In the midst of the action... all was fine... but now that you ask.. Fridge Logic sets in and makes me wonder... that's some light granite! Expect a lot of Fridge Logic moments with 4e... I don't mind them, but some are head scratchers. They were flat on the ground with a fragile cover… and you could topple them (like toppling a horizontal freezer) to empty their content and the lantern on the floor.

In the midst of the action… all was fine… but now that you ask.. Fridge Logic sets in and makes me wonder… that’s some light granite!

Expect a lot of Fridge Logic moments with 4e… I don’t mind them, but some are head scratchers.

]]> By: Noumenon http://critical-hits.com/2008/06/08/playing-4e-game-day-experience-and-dming-thoughts/#comment-50147 Noumenon Sun, 08 Jun 2008 12:44:25 +0000 http://chattydm.net/?p=625#comment-50147 I don't understand the sarcophagus scenario. If you can topple them, that means they're upright. If you can climb on and walk across the covers, that means they're flat on the ground. I don’t understand the sarcophagus scenario. If you can topple them, that means they’re upright. If you can climb on and walk across the covers, that means they’re flat on the ground.

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