Comments on: Mining Tropes for RPG Goodness: You, Bastard! http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/ The Journal of Gamer Culture Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:43:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Making Challenges That Players Love To Beat - Gnome Stew, the Game Mastering Blog http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47719 Making Challenges That Players Love To Beat - Gnome Stew, the Game Mastering Blog Wed, 28 May 2008 12:10:13 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47719 [...] BBEG someone big in the world setting can make players salivate to take it out. Making the BBEG a magnificent bastard (think Gaius Baltar from Battlestar Galactica) can have a huge impact. If the villain is full of [...] [...] BBEG someone big in the world setting can make players salivate to take it out. Making the BBEG a magnificent bastard (think Gaius Baltar from Battlestar Galactica) can have a huge impact. If the villain is full of [...]

]]> By: ChattyDM http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47718 ChattyDM Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:28:18 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47718 I've been looking your stuff up while you dig your way through my trope archive and I must say I'm impressed at the amount of work you put in your world. Do sign up on my minion's page to put a link to your site! I’ve been looking your stuff up while you dig your way through my trope archive and I must say I’m impressed at the amount of work you put in your world.

Do sign up on my minion’s page to put a link to your site!

]]> By: Jürgen Hubert http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47717 Jürgen Hubert Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:25:33 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47717 Gankorou, from the Exalted campaign I mentioned earlier, definitely filled the role of "Magnificent Bastard". Even if their characters loathed him, the players loved him. After their initial confrontation - which was a non-lethal duel made for a bet than a lethal fight - he always appeared friendly and useful and always gave the PCs what they <i>said</i> they wanted, while also making sure that in the process denied them what they <i>truly</i> wanted. Even when they thought they had him under control (and they did, after a fashion), he managed to unnerve them - like causing the Zenith caste to be worshiped as a god, which benefited him mechanically, but disturbed him emotionally as he used to be a Christian missionary... NPCs who thrive on strong emotions are a lot of fun, and I can only recommend using them. Gankorou, from the Exalted campaign I mentioned earlier, definitely filled the role of “Magnificent Bastard”. Even if their characters loathed him, the players loved him. After their initial confrontation – which was a non-lethal duel made for a bet than a lethal fight – he always appeared friendly and useful and always gave the PCs what they said they wanted, while also making sure that in the process denied them what they truly wanted. Even when they thought they had him under control (and they did, after a fashion), he managed to unnerve them – like causing the Zenith caste to be worshiped as a god, which benefited him mechanically, but disturbed him emotionally as he used to be a Christian missionary…

NPCs who thrive on strong emotions are a lot of fun, and I can only recommend using them.

]]> By: ChattyDM http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47716 ChattyDM Sun, 03 Feb 2008 02:18:21 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47716 Cool story StingRay. I agree that the Illusionist <i>is</i> a great character class for the MB. Cool story StingRay.

I agree that the Illusionist is a great character class for the MB.

]]> By: StingRay http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47715 StingRay Sun, 03 Feb 2008 00:57:50 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47715 I had a character turn into a magnificent bastard at one point. He was a good-aligned illusionist who discovered the power of shadow magic and attracted the attention of the goddess of shadow. He pretty much knew she was evil, but, if a goddess takes a liking to you, what are you going to do? He spent more and more time in her realm, saw his values twisted more and more, and eventually worked over the entire party in various ruthless ways. It actually happened such that no one knew the root of their problems was him until the end of the campaign. It was actually pretty entertaining. I had a character turn into a magnificent bastard at one point. He was a good-aligned illusionist who discovered the power of shadow magic and attracted the attention of the goddess of shadow. He pretty much knew she was evil, but, if a goddess takes a liking to you, what are you going to do?

He spent more and more time in her realm, saw his values twisted more and more, and eventually worked over the entire party in various ruthless ways. It actually happened such that no one knew the root of their problems was him until the end of the campaign. It was actually pretty entertaining.

]]> By: ChattyDM http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47714 ChattyDM Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:49:32 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47714 I think you hit a good point Yax in that A well played MB PC needs to have a secret agenda, shared with the DM... That way the player makes the DM an accomplice to his plans and prevents the 'I decide, on the spot, to be a Jerk syndrome' I think you hit a good point Yax in that A well played MB PC needs to have a secret agenda, shared with the DM…

That way the player makes the DM an accomplice to his plans and prevents the ‘I decide, on the spot, to be a Jerk syndrome’

]]> By: Yax http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47713 Yax Thu, 31 Jan 2008 04:23:15 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47713 I think the key to the magnificent bastard is to figure out what his motivation is. Somehow he needs to have drastically different - and secret - motives that will lead him to sharing most of the PCs goals. This should provide a DM with the skewed, twisted vision of the world the bastard has. And yet he should be helpful to, or tolerated by the PCs. I think the key to the magnificent bastard is to figure out what his motivation is. Somehow he needs to have drastically different – and secret – motives that will lead him to sharing most of the PCs goals.

This should provide a DM with the skewed, twisted vision of the world the bastard has. And yet he should be helpful to, or tolerated by the PCs.

]]> By: Graham|ve4grm http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47712 Graham|ve4grm Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:02:07 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47712 If turning it off fixed it, then there's your problem. Good to know, though. If turning it off fixed it, then there’s your problem.

Good to know, though.

]]> By: Phased Weasel http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47711 Phased Weasel Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:44:48 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47711 I figured it out. I run NoScript to squash ads, annoying flash and possibly exploits. It must killing the script which displays the fields in correct order. I figured it out. I run NoScript to squash ads, annoying flash and possibly exploits. It must killing the script which displays the fields in correct order.

]]> By: Graham|ve4grm http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47710 Graham|ve4grm Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:22:18 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47710 Well, it's your home computer that's messed up. It should appear above the comment box to everyone at all times. It's above for me. Always has been. Could you check a couple things for me? 1) Exact version of Firefox (latest is 2.0.0.11) 2) Extensions installed 3) If using Greasemonkey, does it look the same with Greasemonkey off? 4) Javascript enabled Well, it’s your home computer that’s messed up. It should appear above the comment box to everyone at all times.

It’s above for me. Always has been.

Could you check a couple things for me?

1) Exact version of Firefox (latest is 2.0.0.11)
2) Extensions installed
3) If using Greasemonkey, does it look the same with Greasemonkey off?
4) Javascript enabled

]]> By: Phased Weasel http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47709 Phased Weasel Wed, 30 Jan 2008 01:53:02 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47709 Well, now I'm viewing from home and it appears under the "Submit Comment" instead of above. It must be related to the browser, but both computers are running the newest version of FireFox. Oh well. Well, now I’m viewing from home and it appears under the “Submit Comment” instead of above. It must be related to the browser, but both computers are running the newest version of FireFox. Oh well.

]]> By: ChattyDM http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47708 ChattyDM Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:53:50 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47708 :P @ Graham... even if it's entirely true! :P @ Graham…

even if it’s entirely true!

]]> By: Graham|ve4grm http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47707 Graham|ve4grm Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:21:48 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47707 ...huh? Phased Weasel - the anti-spam word hasn't changed places. I haven't changed any code for it, and I'm pretty sure that ChattyDM doesn't even know how. :P Did you upgrade your browser? …huh?

Phased Weasel – the anti-spam word hasn’t changed places. I haven’t changed any code for it, and I’m pretty sure that ChattyDM doesn’t even know how. :P

Did you upgrade your browser?

]]> By: Phased Weasel http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47706 Phased Weasel Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:09:41 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47706 Yay, you moved the anti-spam word above the comment field! Anyway, I think if a mature party decides they must kill the magnificent bastard, and succeed despite whatever circumstances the NPC has put in place (and choosing to suffer the consequences, etc), then the magnificent bastard has failed, and does not deserve deus ex machina. Yay, you moved the anti-spam word above the comment field!

Anyway, I think if a mature party decides they must kill the magnificent bastard, and succeed despite whatever circumstances the NPC has put in place (and choosing to suffer the consequences, etc), then the magnificent bastard has failed, and does not deserve deus ex machina.

]]> By: MikeLemmer http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47705 MikeLemmer Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:06:22 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47705 I think the best Magnificent Bastards are the ones that are a side plot to the campaign and even, occasionally, help the players out. (Or at least let them get a fair share.) I have a potential NPC, a goblin merchant that deals in hard-to-sell holy/unholy items. He pays good coin for unholy items and even arranges trades between parties. (Imagine a group of clerics with Demon Armor negotiating for a Holy Avenger from cultists.) He can make the PCs a lot of money, has his fingers on the pulse of the occult underworld, and occasionally pulls off a big con. He can be the PCs' enemy, and even betray them a couple times ("just for business, I knew you'd get out just fine"), but he's also the Man with the Plan (or, at least, the Contacts) for luring out that Elder God cult... I think the best Magnificent Bastards are the ones that are a side plot to the campaign and even, occasionally, help the players out. (Or at least let them get a fair share.)

I have a potential NPC, a goblin merchant that deals in hard-to-sell holy/unholy items. He pays good coin for unholy items and even arranges trades between parties. (Imagine a group of clerics with Demon Armor negotiating for a Holy Avenger from cultists.) He can make the PCs a lot of money, has his fingers on the pulse of the occult underworld, and occasionally pulls off a big con.

He can be the PCs’ enemy, and even betray them a couple times (“just for business, I knew you’d get out just fine”), but he’s also the Man with the Plan (or, at least, the Contacts) for luring out that Elder God cult…

]]> By: greywulf http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47704 greywulf Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:06:18 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47704 In our superhero gaming, The Face would count as a Magnificent Bastard, I guess. He's the ammoral leader of the Covert, our version of the MiB organisation which possibly serves the government - though it could be argued that the government serves them :) The Face is so-called because he has none. No eyes, no mouth, no nose, nothing, just a blank expanse of skin which somehow still seems to be staring directly into you. The Face is persuasive, charming and utterly ruthless. Entire towns have vanished on his command if it suited the needs of the Covert, and he always stays one step ahead of the people who stay one step ahead of everyone else. My players have alternated between hating him completely and had to come crawling to him to clean up their messes :) Good post, CDM. Good post. In our superhero gaming, The Face would count as a Magnificent Bastard, I guess.

He’s the ammoral leader of the Covert, our version of the MiB organisation which possibly serves the government – though it could be argued that the government serves them :)

The Face is so-called because he has none. No eyes, no mouth, no nose, nothing, just a blank expanse of skin which somehow still seems to be staring directly into you. The Face is persuasive, charming and utterly ruthless. Entire towns have vanished on his command if it suited the needs of the Covert, and he always stays one step ahead of the people who stay one step ahead of everyone else.

My players have alternated between hating him completely and had to come crawling to him to clean up their messes :)

Good post, CDM. Good post.

]]> By: ChattyDM http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47703 ChattyDM Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:02:09 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47703 The thing is.... it's a fine line to walk between an interesting NPC for the players (even one they hate) and an Omniscient/Omnipotent DM stand-in .... The thing is…. it’s a fine line to walk between an interesting NPC for the players (even one they hate) and an Omniscient/Omnipotent DM stand-in ….

]]> By: PM http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47702 PM Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:58:41 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47702 Eh... If you're really quick witted, when the players decide to kill the Magnificient Bastard, make him ressurect instantly in a new form. His plan all along was to be slain in manner X. Free of his corporeal self, he can now ascend to another plane and do his dirty business there. But it's better not to let it get out of hand like this. Eh… If you’re really quick witted, when the players decide to kill the Magnificient Bastard, make him ressurect instantly in a new form. His plan all along was to be slain in manner X. Free of his corporeal self, he can now ascend to another plane and do his dirty business there.

But it’s better not to let it get out of hand like this.

]]> By: ChattyDM http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47701 ChattyDM Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:04:11 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47701 Agreed. I think the Bastard should always be weaker than the combined party. (Bomb non-withstanding)... If players abandon and decide tolet the bastard win (or are ready to destroy the campaign to kill him), the trope was pushed too far... which is far easier to say than to prevent I agree... In that case I suggest turning the bastard into and overlord and letting him/her die... Agreed. I think the Bastard should always be weaker than the combined party. (Bomb non-withstanding)…

If players abandon and decide tolet the bastard win (or are ready to destroy the campaign to kill him), the trope was pushed too far… which is far easier to say than to prevent I agree…

In that case I suggest turning the bastard into and overlord and letting him/her die…

]]> By: MikeLemmer http://critical-hits.com/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47700 MikeLemmer Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:49:01 +0000 http://chattydm.net/2008/01/28/mining-tropes-for-rpg-goodness-you-bastard/#comment-47700 A word of warning: Be careful when establishing just how challenging the Magnificent Bastard is. I've seen a campaign almost self-destruct before my eyes because the players decided he would win No Matter What and turned suicidally nihilistic. A word of warning: Be careful when establishing just how challenging the Magnificent Bastard is. I’ve seen a campaign almost self-destruct before my eyes because the players decided he would win No Matter What and turned suicidally nihilistic.

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